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Author Topic: Ideas for New Races, Site Types  (Read 4652 times)

AceSV

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Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« on: January 01, 2016, 10:55:51 am »

I've had some ideas for new civs.  There are some things that modding would not be able to deal with.

Western:

Trow/Deep Elf:
An underground race of elves that grow fungus and tame cave creatures.  Could be more martial than surface elves in response to underground threats, using bone or chitin arms in addition to wood, or reactions that harden wood or they cultivate special iron-wood fungus that is much harder than other wood. 

Most people would probably recognize the spelling Drow instead of Trow, but I'd rather shy away from Gygax's version since people want them to be so specific sometimes.  Trow is actually cognate to Troll and represents a diminutive version, although the Trolls of the Norse world bear little similarity to those of Tolkien and Gygax.  Trolls were associated with magic; the term trollman refers to a magician or wizard. 

Powrie/Redcap:
A predatory race of dwarves that lives on the surface.  According to legend, they dyed their caps red with blood, and had to kill regularly for if the caps ran out of blood they died.  I would just say that Powries are bloodsuckers and starve without sustenance.  It was impossible to outrun a Powrie, either because they are too fast or because they are tireless.  Powries lived in the ruins of old castles.  In dwarf fortress they might take up residence in ruined sites, but this would complicate world generation.  Perhaps Powries could build sites that appear to be ruins, being in a state of disrepair or unfinishedness, or being eerily empty on account of the blood suckers lack of needs. 

Barbarian/Wildmen:
A relative of the common human with greater physical ability and animalistic instinct.  They could live a nomadic lifestyle traveling in huge groups and making temporary camps, or they could live in crude dwellings, hardly sheltered from the elements that they do not fear.  Barbarians might specifically colonize savage ecosystems, or human sites within savage ecosystems might generate or transform into barbarian groups.  Barbarians would ride on exotic mounts or carry their goods on exotic animals like elephants and rhinos.  Barbarians would wear garments made of hides, bones and shells instead of cloth, and might forego the hassle of metalworking and rely on wood, rock, bone or shell arms and armor instead. 

Puck/Brownie/Hob:
Small mischievous spirits of western lore.  I would imagine something akin to Terry Pratchett's Nac Mac Feegles, very small creatures with enormous strength.  They would probably prefer to fight barehanded than with weapons, as they wouldn't be able to wield anything particularly dangerous, although, I enjoy the Atelier Iris version of Brownies which are knee-high little munchkins that wield stone hammers as large as they are and I would love some sort of tag that would make that possible.  AI's Brownie:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Not sure what kind of site a Puck/Brownie/Hob would occupy.  According to some myths they live inside mushrooms, maybe they could grow a kind of highwood sized mushroom and hollow out the cap to live in, with multiple caps together to form large buildings like the civic mound or drinking hall.  They could also roam the world as vagabonds or live exclusively in existing civs, like animal people. 

X-Taurs:
Centaur like creatures made from various animals.  They would probably be like animal people.  In contemporary artwork, they are often depicted as fully animal, but with a hexapod body layout. 

Some examples.  Fair warning, they are weird:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)



Indian: 

( I realize that many would complain that Indian mythoraces are out of character for DF, but they might provide the foundations of an idea that could be DFized later )

Rakshasa:
The antagonists of the Ramayana are a race of "demons" with the ability to fly, venomous claws and taste for human flesh (presumably also dwarves and their boozey livers).  Some sort of EATS_PEOPLE tag could work like the thief and snather civs for Rakshasas and Powries.  Rakshasa seem to be prone to mutations, their king, Ravana, has 10 heads and 10 arms, his brother Kumbhakarna was a giant, and in artwork, the rakshasa are often portrayed as various animals rather than any specific shape.  They inhabit a fortress atop a mountain on an island, very difficult to reach if one is not able to fly like a Rakshasa.  This could be an interesting type of site to add when ships are implemented, as it would require sea travel to reach.  (Although in the real story, the Vanara use a dwarfier approach and reach Lanka by building a bridge hundreds of miles long and exploiting an error in physics left by the gods) 

Some pictures: 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Vanara:
One of the main protagonists of the Ramayana are the race of monkey-men, the Vanara.  The vanara were incredibly strong, wielding boulders and tree trunks in battle.  The Vanaras were allies of the Riksha, bear-men, and both were created by the gods for the purpose of fighting the Rakshasa.  It would be interesting to give Vanara some sort of tag which specifies that they must be at war with another specific civ.    I have a read a version which says the capital of the Vanaras was a large cave within a forest, but it seems that it is depicted variously as a citadel or just a region.  China has a variation of the Vanara lead by Sun Wukong who found a vast cave behind a waterfall and commanded his monkey-men from there.  It would be interested to see a site type which is a more civilized cave or forest than what the elves and kobolds use. 

Naga:
Naga just means snake, but in legend, Naga characters are given anthropomorphic or straight-up human characteristics.  They are depicted as mermaid-like, snake-like, dragon-like or polycephalid.  According to legend, Nagas once lived above ground but were chased away by the mighty bird Garuda.  Nagas formed two groups, those that live underwater and those that live in the deepest regions of the underworld, which in DF would be the magma sea.  In the current version of DF, it would be a stretch to be able to visit cities that are undersea or in magma, but perhaps that will change someday.  Perhaps Nagas could live on the coasts and build fortress that extend under the water, or create towers that extend from above the water to below the seabed. 

One imagines that the concept of undersea Nagas is somehow related to the western concept of mermaids and to the Dragon Kings of China and Japan, who live in palaces underwater.  Some amalgamation of these concepts might be better than using any one on its own. 
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vjmdhzgr

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Re: Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2016, 11:08:07 am »

I don't think Toady is interested in adding new civilizations.
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AceSV

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Re: Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2016, 11:13:13 am »

I don't think Toady is interested in adding new civilizations.

Well, it hasn't been relevant for a long time, but now that people can come visit your fortress from the ends of the earth, a splash of diversity makes it more enjoyable.  Hence why Trow, Powrie and Barbarian are just different types of Elf, Dwarf and Human, and X-Taurs are just a different type of animal people.  I could probably do most of that with mod tokens but having them all use the same kind of site is boring if you're playing adventure mode. 
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Re: Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2016, 02:58:04 pm »

Reading through this, the only races you have here that aren't currently possible to mod in are the Naga (civs will never generate in the ocean or magma sea) and Barbarians (civs will never generate in savage biomes IIRC, and nomads aren't currently implemented).

I do want it eventually to be possible for specific biomes to be specified for colonization and for modders to design site templates rather than just using cities/fortresses/forest retreats etc, but that's probably a distant goal.
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AceSV

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Re: Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2016, 06:07:48 pm »

Reading through this, the only races you have here that aren't currently possible to mod in are the Naga (civs will never generate in the ocean or magma sea) and Barbarians (civs will never generate in savage biomes IIRC, and nomads aren't currently implemented).

I do want it eventually to be possible for specific biomes to be specified for colonization and for modders to design site templates rather than just using cities/fortresses/forest retreats etc, but that's probably a distant goal.

I don't think an underground forest retreat for Trow is possible either.  The main thing I am intending to suggest are the sites, but such a thing is dependent on the creatures that live there so I have described a few that I think would fit into the DF cosmology well. 
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2016, 12:55:19 am »

I think the main reason that the game doesn't have centaurs is the difficulty with their internal organs: If it's a human(oid) torso stuck onto a horse torso, does that mean that the upper upper body and upper lower body are both lungs, while the 2 intestines reside in the lower upper body & lower lower body? Plus there's the fact that a human's head has neither the musculature nor the dentition to process enough grass to sustain a full-size horse. So, between that and the existing various animalmen, I don't really see any need for X-taurs, they wouldn't bring anything new to the table.

Rakshasa seem more promising, but the D&D version more so than the authentic Indian origin, because the game currently lacks races more civilized (or at least better-dressed) than dwarves. Sure, the elves are snooty and elitist, but they're still a bunch of dirty hippies selling beads. It would be a neat change to have it be a challenge to build a fortress elegant enough, and sell finished goods refined enough, to attract the attention of the lavishly-robed tigermen merchants who will pay exorbitant prices for your masterwork (but only masterwork) wares, but also eat your flesh if they think they're being insulted by the quality of goods you offer them.
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AceSV

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Re: Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2016, 02:33:08 am »

I think the main reason that the game doesn't have centaurs is the difficulty with their internal organs: If it's a human(oid) torso stuck onto a horse torso, does that mean that the upper upper body and upper lower body are both lungs, while the 2 intestines reside in the lower upper body & lower lower body? Plus there's the fact that a human's head has neither the musculature nor the dentition to process enough grass to sustain a full-size horse. So, between that and the existing various animalmen, I don't really see any need for X-taurs, they wouldn't bring anything new to the table.

Rakshasa seem more promising, but the D&D version more so than the authentic Indian origin, because the game currently lacks races more civilized (or at least better-dressed) than dwarves. Sure, the elves are snooty and elitist, but they're still a bunch of dirty hippies selling beads. It would be a neat change to have it be a challenge to build a fortress elegant enough, and sell finished goods refined enough, to attract the attention of the lavishly-robed tigermen merchants who will pay exorbitant prices for your masterwork (but only masterwork) wares, but also eat your flesh if they think they're being insulted by the quality of goods you offer them.

Back when I was designing a race of space centaurs for some reason, I explained that the two torsos each contain a set of redundant organs.  So an X-taur would have one pair of lungs in its upper torso (human torso on a centaur) and a second pair in the lower torso (horse torso on a centaur).  Having both pairs of lungs is optimal for the X-taur, but the X-taur can stay alive with only one pair.  Another theory was that the centaur is actually related to nagas and merpeople, and the lower torso is actually a modified tail that has evolved to space out the legs and doesn't hold any significant organs.  I also calculated that a normal sized human body affixed to a normal sized horse body would look stupid; most centaurs in artwork are much smaller.  An artistically correct centaur has a lower torso between 1x to 2x the volume of the upper torso whereas a horse would be something like 10x the volume.  X-taurs could have higher metabolisms (as they do in Dungeon Crawl) but it should be feasible for a human torso to sustain a correctly proportioned centaur. 

Also worth noting that the ancient greeks thought this out completely: 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I would agree that having an animal-man and X-taur for every animal would feel excessive, but replacing a few animal-men with X-taurs could add to the diversity.  For example, there might be lion-taurs and tiger-men, but no lion-men or tiger-taurs.  I think some creatures would make more sense as X-taurs, for example animals like cheetahs or mountain goats that are known for their swift legs make more sense to me as hexapods, while something like a kangaroo-taur would be ridiculous.  Bird-taurs or at least a kinnara-style body would clear up the classic issue of anthropomorphic birds needing both wings and hands. 

I'm actually incredibly furious that D&D rakshasas exist.  It makes absolutely no sense for Gygax to have made up a completely new creature and then gave it the name of an existing mythical race with their own well defined characteristics, especially since D&D has so few qualms about making up names for their other made up races like the Gith or Kenku.  I would be equally furious if DF made the same mistake.  If you wanted to make a race of super luxurious elitists, I'm sure you could pick a mythological being that would be better suited than the man-eating rakshasa.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_guardians_in_folklore lists Jinn, Gnomes, Leprechauns, Dragons and Salamanders, and off the top of my head, the rakshasas' cousins, the yakshas or at least the yaksha king Kubera (who was drumdrumdrumdrum a dwarf) were placed in charge of guarding and distributing worldly treasures by the gods, or the gandharva/apsara who live in the flying cities of heaven. 

That said, the authentic Hindu Rakshasa could still have some potential as super luxurious elitists, since their island stronghold was a fabulous palace gifted by the gods in ages past, and they accumulated great wealth in their conquest of the three worlds, but I think this would be greatly complicated by their trait of hunting and eating human beings (and allegedly dwarves).  But then, elves also eat people and that's not why we don't get along, so maybe a Rakshasa civ could think of your dwarves as livestock until their fortress reaches a certain level of wealth and then send someone to trade. 
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IndigoFenix

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Re: Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2016, 11:02:08 am »

It's unlikely that Toady will add in new races, especially when most of these are perfectly moddable already.

Instead, focus on the aspects that are not currently moddable, and try and see where they would fit in with Toady's existing vision.

For instance, subterranean animal people already exist in DF, but underground civs are very primitive as of this point.  If they could be improved upon, giving underground animal people civs nobles, sites, the ability to expand throughout the caverns, the ability to trade with forts, and so on, you could easily add Deep Elves to the list.

Toady is already showing interest in blurring the lines between wild populations and civilized beings, with the ability for wild animal people to join existing civilizations.  I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest further blurring this line by allowing certain wild creatures to advance to nomadic or tribal societies (basically like bandit camps that sprout spontaneously in areas populated by sapient wild creatures) and, if they advance far enough (or gain technology from nearby civs), to actually create their own procedurally-generated civilizations.  It should also be possible for breakaway civilized creature groups (bandit groups) to 'degenerate' into wild, roaming animal populations, especially if they originally emerged from wild populations in the first place.  This would likewise allow human groups to degenerate into wildmen camps.

Oceanic sites are basically unworkable right now, but DF does have merfolk.  If merfolk were added to the list of wild creatures that could form their own sites,  there is the opening to mod Naga into the game.  Right now there is not much chance of Toady going through all the trouble to make a new site type just for one species (new site types are probably really hard to make, and aquatic sites would need a lot of special rules to make them work properly), but when he starts getting into boats and sea travel, I expect merfolk to become a lot more interesting.

Hobs/Brownies should probably be a servant race ('House Elves' from Harry Potter are totally brownies).  There is already preliminary support for that (I'm adding them into my own mod) but I would like there to be a little more interesting dynamics for slavery, seeing as how it is in the ethics list (slaves should be able to rebel, for instance).

Redcaps could just be a kind of predator.  Semi-sapient wild animals (creatures that function like wild animals, but are generated wearing clothes or wielding weapons, for instance) seems like a reasonable addition to the existing game.  Gnomes can fall into that category.

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Re: Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2016, 02:01:13 am »

Back when I was designing a race of space centaurs for some reason, I explained that the two torsos each contain a set of redundant organs.  So an X-taur would have one pair of lungs in its upper torso (human torso on a centaur) and a second pair in the lower torso (horse torso on a centaur).  Having both pairs of lungs is optimal for the X-taur, but the X-taur can stay alive with only one pair.
I was going to comment about how completely redundant vital organs are something that would be almost impossible to evolve . . . but then I remembered that this is a game featuring beasts that are literally made out of materials like steam and vomit.

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I'm actually incredibly furious that D&D rakshasas exist.  It makes absolutely no sense for Gygax to have made up a completely new creature and then gave it the name of an existing mythical race . . . I would be equally furious if DF made the same mistake.
No, your fury is actually 100% credible. How difficult is it to NOT step on some other creature's NAME?

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. . . the authentic Hindu Rakshasa could still have some potential as super luxurious elitists . . . but I think this would be greatly complicated by their trait of hunting and eating human beings (and allegedly dwarves).  But then, elves also eat people and that's not why we don't get along
Yeah, I regard Rakshasas' sapiovore status (as the word "cannibal" technically doesn't apply to them) as a plus, because I find it too "easy" and predictable to have a de facto hierarchy of races, each of whom are objectively more "enlightened" and PC than ones on "lower" tiers. I think the combination of an ethic that we hold in high regard ("Hey, nice shoes") with one that we abhor (preferentially eating sentient beings) is a juxtaposition that makes the race far more interesting.
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AceSV

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Re: Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2016, 12:01:05 am »

It's unlikely that Toady will add in new races, especially when most of these are perfectly moddable already.

Instead, focus on the aspects that are not currently moddable, and try and see where they would fit in with Toady's existing vision.

The main thing I'd be interested in is expanding the types of sites available, and it doesn't make sense to add more sites unless there's a race to inhabit them. 

Back when I was designing a race of space centaurs for some reason, I explained that the two torsos each contain a set of redundant organs.  So an X-taur would have one pair of lungs in its upper torso (human torso on a centaur) and a second pair in the lower torso (horse torso on a centaur).  Having both pairs of lungs is optimal for the X-taur, but the X-taur can stay alive with only one pair.
I was going to comment about how completely redundant vital organs are something that would be almost impossible to evolve . . . but then I remembered that this is a game featuring beasts that are literally made out of materials like steam and vomit.

It shouldn't be impossible to evolve in a real world, human kidneys work that way. 


Quote
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. . . the authentic Hindu Rakshasa could still have some potential as super luxurious elitists . . . but I think this would be greatly complicated by their trait of hunting and eating human beings (and allegedly dwarves).  But then, elves also eat people and that's not why we don't get along
Yeah, I regard Rakshasas' sapiovore status (as the word "cannibal" technically doesn't apply to them) as a plus, because I find it too "easy" and predictable to have a de facto hierarchy of races, each of whom are objectively more "enlightened" and PC than ones on "lower" tiers. I think the combination of an ethic that we hold in high regard ("Hey, nice shoes") with one that we abhor (preferentially eating sentient beings) is a juxtaposition that makes the race far more interesting.

Should it interest, Rakshasas are usually described as "cannibal" because it's generally believed (I think) that the stories of Rakshasa and Vanara represent real human tribes that really existed long long long before recorded history.  The "rakshasa" were a tribe of cannibals and the "vanara" were a tribe of forest dwellers and over time, they were remembered as demons and monkey-men instead of human beings because their way of life differed from the majority in India.  In later eras, the rakshasa are convinced to give up their cannibal habit and seem to join the larger society, while the vanara just seem to fade into obscurity.  Or, if you're into this sort of thing, Indian epics like the Ramayana are often believed to represent either alien encounters or prehistoric super technology.  One of the most conspicuous examples of super technology is the pushpaka vehicle, which could fly through the air and was as large as a palace.  Rakshasas' ability to fly and create illusion may also represent some form of super technology, rather than a "biological" gift. 

Probably not super relevant to a DF version of rakshasa unless Toady suddenly goes off script and adds a mechanic for atlantian super technology (start that suggestion elsewhere) but it's amusing to reread the Ramayana as a sci-fi epic instead of fantasy. 
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Re: Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2016, 06:53:28 pm »

I do want it eventually to be possible for specific biomes to be specified for colonization and for modders to design site templates rather than just using cities/fortresses/forest retreats etc, but that's probably a distant goal.

^ Pretty much this. Being strapped in to 4 major types of civ sites ties your hands. I'd add that site templates would be great if they included ways to mod the buildings used.
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Re: Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2016, 09:46:37 pm »

It's unlikely that Toady will add in new races, especially when most of these are perfectly moddable already.

I think the exact opposite. I think he will add in new races... when appropriate.

He added a TON of new races recently incase you forgot and one of the earliest creatures added to the game were Centaurs and Chimeras who didn't exist but could be considered features to come.

In fact... to the best of my knowledge the only reason we don't have Taurs and Chimeras is more because the game doesn't know how to handle it... But guess what? Later on we are going to have amalgam creatures when the Frankenstien zombies come into play.
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Klitri

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Re: Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2016, 11:04:48 pm »

We have centaurs, I recently raided a maze with one it in, I have to agree with the others, focus on things that can't be modded. To be honest, I don't like your races, they're too advanced and don't really fit with what the game is. We have entity races, that form civs and such (Kobolds, Humans, Dwarves, Elves, etc) Then we have beasts (Dragon, other semi, titan, or mega, beasts), and then wildlife.  But your races seem like variants, which while interesting don't seem to plot into the game in my eyes. Idunno
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Re: Ideas for New Races, Site Types
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2016, 09:17:18 am »

That's a Minotaur. Not a centaur.
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