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[MobRules]

. And I'll also be hoping that difficulty pendulum will swing back along with AI improvements.

I have no doubt it will. The two things that make the .4x versions of the game easier than prior are 1. the fixing of a number of bugs that artificially raised the difficulty and 2. the outside world now continues being simulated post-world-gen, while you play -- so instead of generating sieges out of thin air based on your fortress stats, enemies have to choose your fort above other possible targets, and path there.

The most recent changes have been about making the world richer, more complex, and more real. The game's difficulty hasn't been tuned to the new changes yet, because it can't be tuned before the changes are made.

The backlash you are getting isn't due to being frustrated with recent changes making things too easy -- a lot of DF fans share that frustration (hence the existence of mods like Fortress Defense). It's due to your looking at a(n early alpha) game that's in a constant state of flux at one point during it's development, and declaring "yer do'in it wrong," without seeming to understand the context of your complaints.

So instead of struggling with a broken AI... we are managing bunches of completely dysfunctional idiots, trying to make them survive despite themselves. Okay, that works somewhat.

This, exactly.

DF fans have a rich history of coming up with in-game explainations for all of the games quirks. For some, that's part of the fun (and uniqueness) of the game.

[PatrikLundell]

:
:Speaking of which, what I also find sad with that kind of time frame is that it would be very easy for a dedicated team to "borrow" a bunch of good ideas from Dwarf Fortress, and publish a nice polished game with fancy graphics, way before DF itself is ready. The author may not mind, but I wouldn't like seeing that happen. It's his vision, he deserves to be the first.
:

It's already happened (e.g. "Banished"), and the end result is bland at best, trying to catch some aspects of the game, but cutting away most of it as "needless complexity" or "not within budget" (but successfully succeeding in enhancing the stupidity of the "dwarves").

Actually competing with DF would require fairly deep pockets to fund the development of a game for some 5 years with a 5-30 people staff, guided by a mad project manager who insists the kitchen sink has to be included even when it causes problems. Of course, it will take an additional 5 years to sort out most of the weird undesired emergent results and balance things to actually make it playable when all the stuff has been crammed in.
Fancy graphics would be it's own little hell hole to produce if you try to do that mid production. Would that game recover the money spent? Rather unlikely.

[Robsoie]

I don't think there's real clone with all the features from DF , but there have been several Dwarf Fortress "inspired" games , i think the commercial one i heard the most about is Gnomoria, there was a thread about it :
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=111198.0

My favorite DF-inspired game was Goblin Camp, it was free (and open source) and there were some very good ideas for the game interface but there was a lot less features than in DF.

Anyways

The two things that make the .4x versions of the game easier than prior are 1. the fixing of a number of bugs that artificially raised the difficulty and 2. the outside world now continues being simulated post-world-gen, while you play -- so instead of generating sieges out of thin air based on your fortress stats, enemies have to choose your fort above other possible targets, and path there.

There's a 3rd thing that make the game easier, the new bugs , by example in DF2014 adventure mode, you could attack everyone and nearly never any of those attacked NPC or any of their faction-friends would retaliate against you.
Only the odd non-named troll would fight back (but named trolls would never) and the "spoilers"
I think it was a massive df2014 bug described there :
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7161
And another one with the factions (that i can't find in the mantis currently) that were responsible of it, the problems still exist in 42.x (but much lessened) as by example hostile troglodytes never attack your civilians in the fortress caverns and in adventure mode there are still npc that do not retaliate against you trying to kill them.

While in previous versions, in adventure mode making enemies was very lethal to your character and fortresses caverns were much more dangerous for your civilians.

[Urlance Woolsbane]

I can understand the Stragus' original position. DF isn't the same game as the one that inspired the "Losing is ‼FUN‼" motto. Many bugs have been fixed, and the UI has improved (really, it has!), making it much more survivable. It's now very easy to create a fort that will never fall.

Also, for those who want to experience the hijinks of old, all of DF's previous versions are readily available. Not having come to the game until 40.24, I can't offer much advice as to which version will be the most !!FUN!!, other than the fact that Boatmurdered was pre-0.27.176.38c.

[Stragus]

The backlash you are getting isn't due to being frustrated with recent changes making things too easy -- a lot of DF fans share that frustration (hence the existence of mods like Fortress Defense). It's due to your looking at a(n early alpha) game that's in a constant state of flux at one point during it's development, and declaring "yer do'in it wrong," without seeming to understand the context of your complaints.

Right. Perhaps I haven't been explicit enough as several seemed to interpret my post(s) that way, but I really meant to criticize the documentation describing a very different experience from the game itself (in its current alpha state). When the "Losing is fun!" motto was coined, I understand that previous versions used to be very challenging, even if it's currently impossible to lose.

It's already happened (e.g. "Banished"), and the end result is bland at best, trying to catch some aspects of the game, but cutting away most of it as "needless complexity" or "not within budget" (but successfully succeeding in enhancing the stupidity of the "dwarves").

Fancy graphics would be it's own little hell hole to produce if you try to do that mid production. Would that game recover the money spent? Rather unlikely.

Hum yes, I can see how that Banished game would feel a little bland, and so agree the reviews! Well, I think it's a matter of striking a good balance, Banished may have tried to push graphics too far.

For example, I would keep Dwarves/units as 3D "floating blobs", players really don't need nice models with skeletal animations and physics feedback. The 3D terrain itself could be "cut" at the active layer (everything above not being visible), with the active layer being clearly identified, perhaps with brighter/sharper lighting. That approach limits artistic requirements to trivial stuff (textures, furniture, trees, etc.). Overall, perhaps 1-2 months for bland graphics, give it 4-5 months for detailed terrain, ambient occlusion, spherical harmonics, shadows? (that is not unrealistic; that thing I shared earlier was written in 2 months of spare time, but most of that was on the computational fluid dynamics ( http://www.rayforce.net/newproject024.png ) ).

Obviously, that's all just a suggestion.

I don't think there's real clone with all the features from DF , but there have been several Dwarf Fortress "inspired" games , i think the commercial one i heard the most about is Gnomoria, there was a thread about it :
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=111198.0
My favorite DF-inspired game was Goblin Camp, it was free (and open source) and there were some very good ideas for the game interface but there was a lot less features than in DF.

Well, these look like rather amateurish attempts. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not quite what I have in mind when I fear DF's ideas could be "reused" by a dedicated team to produce something. The Banished guy is visibly a professional programmer (his devblog shows so), with a strong interest for pretty graphics. But perhaps he could have used 2-3 extra programmers to focus on... the gameplay, depth, and such!

[cochramd]

Right. Perhaps I haven't been explicit enough as several seemed to interpret my post(s) that way, but I really meant to criticize the documentation describing a very different experience from the game itself (in its current alpha state).

What is this "documentation" you keep referring to? The wiki's up to date, and if you've been using out of date guides then you really only have yourself to blame.

When the "Losing is fun!" motto was coined, I understand that previous versions used to be very challenging, even if it's currently impossible to lose.

You don't even open up the caverns, play with magma and mine adamantine, do you? Of course you're not going to lose the game if you never undertake dangerous endeavours.

[greycat]

Several people in this thread have explained that "Losing is fun" does not mean "You are going to lose", but he keeps insisting that that's what it means.  It's really frustrating to try to communicate with him.

What is this "documentation" you keep referring to? The wiki's up to date, and if you've been using out of date guides then you really only have yourself to blame.

I'm not sure what pages Stragus is reading either, but on a whim I just checked Fun, and it still has humor-links to Carp and Elephant and Giant sponge.  So, that's maybe not 100% up to date.  But the page itself is still very good, and check this quote in the very beginning:

There is no internal end point, single goal, final Easter egg or "You Win!" announcement in Dwarf Fortress. Therefore, eventually, almost every fortress will fall. The only ones that don't tend to be very conservative and very boring—and what fun is that?

[Salmeuk]

Stragus, you'll be back sooner than you think - nothing else is quite like Dwarf Fortress and whatever stories attracted you to it in the first place are not easily forgotten. I feel like I'm talking like some relationship counselor right now lol, but it's only fitting considering you've decided to "come back in twenty years, when you've stopped lying to me!"

You ignore the context of the games creation when you suggest a "5 man corporate-led endeavor to recreate Dwarf Fortress." Even if you could convince some major game company to fund a money-sink like that(can you imagine how much money it costs to hire a single software dev for 5 years, much less 5+manager?), you would never convince them that the game could make a profit. Colony builders just aren't mainstream enough to garnish the money from those hordes of stinking teenagers (no offense) that make up the industries regular consumer base. And it would have to be corporate money, considering the salaries alone. If you cut the pay of the 5, good luck finding 5 skilled individuals interested in what amounts to a passion project paying peanuts.

What I'm saying is this: DF exists because of a decision made by two brothers to forego the usual pressures and necessities of game development in order to create something absurd and dreamlike aand absolutely crazy. You can't just throw money at it. Corporate game development trashed originality for the sake of sales, and if you disagree go take a gander at the history of EA, BLIZZARD, or VALVE, then come explain why the fourth iteration of battlefield is at all remarkable, why human skinner-boxes were conceptual until WoW, or explain the almost imperialist acquisitions of Valve in the last ten years (I'm ignoring subtleties here to make a point). These concepts just don't mix.

[Stragus]

You ignore the context of the games creation when you suggest a "5 man corporate-led endeavor to recreate Dwarf Fortress." Even if you could convince some major game company to fund a money-sink like that(can you imagine how much money it costs to hire a single software dev for 5 years, much less 5+manager?), you would never convince them that the game could make a profit. Colony builders just aren't mainstream enough to garnish the money from those hordes of stinking teenagers (no offense) that make up the industries regular consumer base. And it would have to be corporate money, considering the salaries alone. If you cut the pay of the 5, good luck finding 5 skilled individuals interested in what amounts to a passion project paying peanuts.

That's correct, I'm unfortunately well aware of how the industry works. The cash investments must be safe in zero-risk releases, and there's nothing safer than slow incremental improvements over proven concepts. There's no room to explore new ideas, there's not even time for programmers to research and pursue new promising solutions! (One of many reasons why I diverged toward the defense industry, where innovative research is sought and encouraged)

So, yes, there's a perceived risk associated to any new idea, like Dwarf Fortress, but they can still be widely successful. I think this has potential to become another Minecraft, so a small, dedicated and adventurous team could pull that off.

Otherwise, I wonder if DF could offload some of the work to the community. For example, instead of the dfhack approach, a stable plug-in interface to build custom 3D graphic engines and UI. Heck, I could contribute to that (once they fix these darn AI bugs ).

I'm not sure what pages Stragus is reading either, but on a whim I just checked:

There is no internal end point, single goal, final Easter egg or "You Win!" announcement in Dwarf Fortress. Therefore, eventually, almost every fortress will fall. The only ones that don't tend to be very conservative and very boring\u2014and what fun is that?

That's a good example, thank you. Let's read that again: "Therefore, eventually, almost every fortress will fall. The only ones that don't tend to be very conservative and very boring".

If almost every fortress will fall, what's a very conservative and very boring one? As a newcomer, I naively assumed it meant: embark in a calm biome surrounded by friendly dwarven fortresses, stay small, don't build up wealth, don't trade too much, don't be ambitious, stay hidden, turtle up, don't attract attention to yourself, don't attract visitors... and yes, no one will bother and you'll survive.

Even if my interpretation was way off, it's still difficult to agree with "almost every fortress will fall". As someone else said in this thread:

If you want to have "fun" at this game, after you've learned the mechanics and how the game works, you have to pretty much shoot yourself in the foot, and while you're at it, play blindfolded with your hands tied behind your back ecc ecc...

Stragus, you'll be back sooner than you think - nothing else is quite like Dwarf Fortress and whatever stories attracted you to it in the first place are not easily forgotten. I feel like I'm talking like some relationship counselor right now lol, but it's only fitting considering you've decided to "come back in twenty years, when you've stopped lying to me!"

Yes, you are probably right. The game is filled with good ideas, we can all see that.

[Rain At Dawn]

Stragus, I find it intriguing that you had so much trouble with Nethack, given your approach to gaming.

I found it... well, not a cakewalk exactly, but certainly a lot easier than I'd been led to believe, and I ascended my third character. Now, maybe I just got lucky. Maybe wizards are overpowered. But maybe it was because I read even single damn thing about it I could lay my hands on.

I offered the amulet, made YAFAP, looked at all the other classes available, failed to get excited by any of them, and walked away from the game. I don't think I'll ever go back.

Now, a healthy portion of the Nethack player base would doubtless have said that I spoiled it for myself with all the spoilers, and that most of the fun is in the discovery. But I had heaps of fun with the research, and putting what I'd learned into practice, and working out any number of things for myself when I couldn't find relevant documentation. I got three solid weeks of enjoyment out of it, which is a lot, for games, for me, and I'm glad I tried it.

By contrast, I've been getting sucked back into Dwarf Fortress at intervals for years. But then, here I'm not trying to ascend.

[Stragus]

Stragus, I find it intriguing that you had so much trouble with Nethack, given your approach to gaming.

I found it... well, not a cakewalk exactly, but certainly a lot easier than I'd been led to believe, and I ascended my third character. Now, maybe I just got lucky. Maybe wizards are overpowered. But maybe it was because I read even single damn thing about it I could lay my hands on.

Eheh, the alt.org Nethack server tells me my last game was in 2004. Time flies, but let me tell you it sure felt like a lifetime achievement at the time!

I played a ranger. If I were to play again, I guess I might find Nethack easier than what I remember.

[Shazbot]

As a player for over seven years, I find Stragus' criticisms to be warranted. I haven't seen a siege in releases. Squad mechanics and formations remain sorely lacking. The current best challenge is reanimated dead, which are themselves broken and awaiting a patch. The game's legendary difficulty has been reduced to fruit trees, and the leading cause of death in my fortress is dancing while intoxicated. For my part, I would like to see a development pass focusing on the "fortress". Siege engines that actually aim. Siege armies that build little tents and fences, steal your outdoor crops and livestock, dig through soil layers and push wagon-type catapults up to smash your drawbridge. Multi-tile dragons and GCS. Archers smart enough to step up to fortifications to shoot. Ladders and ropes for climbing over my walls or out of my wells. Diplomats announcing that war has been declared and I should short-sell my goblinite futures.

You know, fun things. Things that seemed just a release away when I first started playing. Things alluded to in the military and combat passes, then left to molder.

I can only gold-plate so many fortresses hoping this release will break the doldrums before I stop bothering.

And yes, seven years ago "losing is fun" meant exactly how Stragus interpreted it.

[Robsoie]

The good thing is that (much) better siege system is planned in future development arcs.
The bad thing is that it may takes years before this get focused on, as the next step from what i understood is developping the myth system arc.

Hopefully in between we'll get some more interesting adjustement to the current siege system to make it more of a threat without having the player being forced in NOT making the best defenses he can if he wants sieges being a serious threat.
But that's me just wishfull thinking about it, there's no hint about that going to happen before the siege arc.

[quekwoambojish]

A while ago, the game used to play like the following:

*Poof* evil has appeared! Many evil nameless things! Fear the night because EVIL!

But now it has become:

Evil wakes up in the morning like everyone else, puts his pants on, and goes to work. Evil knows there's a much more exciting world out there to explore, but he's so bound by his daily comforts he very rarely has time to do the things he'd really enjoy...He's got kids to take care of, he's a married man now. Maybe he'll go ransacking a little village a couple times through the year, but he knows deep down he's a shadow of the former man he used to be.

That's a lot harder to program, but a lot more personable/dynamic. It's not fun, but hopefully within time Evil will get a little more free time in his busy schedule.
(And learn how to build siege equipment)

[Dozebôm Lolumzalěs]

Spoiler: backstory, don't have to read (click to show/hide)

I was first introduced to DF through Nethack. I had played Minecraft, and Grepolis, and then Nethack, but none of them were really satisfying. They'd kept my attention for a few weeks, then I moved on. The reason I didn't like Nethack was that I always died before the Castle, usually near the Gnomish Mines. I tried some RP'ing - died again. Always in the most undramatic way: the soldier ant bites! you die... (dywtiyp?)

But as I browsed Dudley's Dungeon (basically a community comic strip), I saw a reference to something called "Dwarven Fortress", in a strip with some "h" (that's a dwarf) saying "No, Urist!" I didn't think much of it, but in the comments the author apologized for introducing so many Nethack players to DF, "drastically reducing the playerbase." I was interested, so I downloaded.

And then the next few months were filled with embark, mess up, abandon. Embark, last a few more second before pressing the wrong button and WHERE DID THE DWARVES GO oh just over that hill.

And gradually, I became a DF player. And it was definitely more

Then I found the forums. And I looked through community stories - wow! These were from this? They weren't just stories, they were stories of events from DF!

As I became a better player, DF wasn't "hard" anymore. Turtling makes your fortress immortal. Farms are overpowered. Sieges rarely come. You can even let caravans in by (ab)using drawbridges.

But I didn't play DF for the challenge. I play it for the stories that I can make, and the stories that I can help make in succession fortresses.

Basically, if you don't like DF, there are three things you can do (excluding storm off in a huff):

1. Download mods. Use them. Try Masterwork, especially the 34.11 version. Maybe even make your own: it's like coding!

2. Try challenges and megaprojects. Make a giant tower, keep all your farms outside. (sounds like a forum succession fortress? it is) Go to an evil biome, use no traps and always keep a path from the edge of the map to your dining hall. (it'll be easier after the zombie nerf) Make a giant dragon like that guy did! Try minecarts! Dig to [SPOILER]! Conquer the [SPOILERS]! MAKE A GODDAMN FORTRESS IN [SPOILER]!!

3. Play a small fortress. Maybe an outpost, maybe a hermit fortress, maybe monks. Look at each individual dwarf. See the relationships. Roleplay, make decisions like the outpost leader would. Admire the procedurally generated artwork and music.

I do all of these, and they haven't run out of new stuff for me to do in over 3/4 of a year.