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[Detros]

I want acces from staircase to surface, from surface up the walls next to fortifications and have those walls shielded with floors from above so that marksdwarves are not trying to climb over walls to attack in close range. For maintaince issues, I want to have secure access to this upper level too, though.

Is this entrance design to the main staircase enemy-proof against those coming from surface, once all three hatches are closed if there is no other way for them to get to the staircase? Seen from side it is just three tiles deep, with standard walls on sides. Middle part looks like this:

Code: [Select]

    _____
   O> >__O
  __<OX__O
 #  OOX >O
 OORIOXO<
qqqqqqXqqqq
      X

_ floor
O wall
> down stairs with hatch cover
< up stairs
X up/down stairs
# fortifications
q ground
R ramp
I support

That ramp should be still usable as AFAIK supports should not obstruct movement. There are also other ways up the walls, ramps all around the encircled area.

So, do you think

• walking building destroyers (from right) can break in and get to the staircase?
• climbing building destroyers from surface (from left) can break in and get to the staircase?
• flying building destroyers  (from up) can break in and get to the staircase?
• dwarves can access all three places (lower walls, upper walls, surface) from staircase when hatches are opened

[SaD-82]

At a first glance, your tower will be vunerable.
Building destroyers from the right can destroy your hatch (if unforbidden).
The same goes for flying building destroyers (hatches left and right - but in this case even if forbidden).
Your fortification can be a problem if it is constructed (at the "image" it seems that there is nor floor above them) - if carved, it's save. Unless of course, that there is no possibility that your enemy can jump through it.
The part with the ramp I don't get - in which way and why?

[Montieth]

I think the BEST way to avoid problems is have a tower or towers that are accessed from below the fortress and not from common areas. A subterranean entrance hall that leads directly to the Depot works well. This gets a 2 level gallery so you can create a hall way that the Marksdwarves can rain bolts down onto invaders that may try to sneak in. This entrance hall locks off from the rest of the fort by way of a gate or gates.

The archer towers should be designed with roofs so that aerial attackers cannot swoop in and kill your archers.

Level 1:

Code: [Select]


INSIDE
-GGG-------------------------
|                                  Ramp to OUTSIDE
|             --------------------
|  DDD     |
|  DDD     |
|_DDD___|

Level 2:

Code: [Select]

-------------------------------
|        Crossbowman's hall
|                                     STAIR up to Archer tower
-FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-
|                                      OUTSIDE
|             --------------------
|   open  |
|   layer  |
|___   __|

The Crossbowman's hall can have Barracks off of it, a nearby archery range and ammo stores. If you lay it out right, you have short paths or at least direct paths to each of the above surface towers so your archers never get to fighting range with your attackers and can move from tower to tower to attack the enemy. This require a bit of planning. My 1st subsurface layer is usually reserved for this. As I like to build my above ground bits on a hill, I usually end up with a very traditional castle, with a central keep and curtain wall arrangement. This also allows plenty of protected above ground grazing space until I get the caverns pierced and underground grazing space setup.


The Combat troops who are supposed to fight the enemy in hand to hand either train in a courtyard above ground next to a side entrance that's used for daily tasks and enters the fort via a small many trapped door/sally port. A few get stationed at the gate entrance across from the Depot. This works quite well for getting Militia and House Guards to places quickly. Especially if you have them training and standing posts and not doing crafts any more. YMMV with regards to the new need to craft for dwarfy self satisfaction...

[Detros]

At a first glance, your tower will be vunerable.
Building destroyers from the right can destroy your hatch (if unforbidden).
The same goes for flying building destroyers (hatches left and right - but in this case even if forbidden).
Your fortification can be a problem if it is constructed (at the "image" it seems that there is nor floor above them) - if carved, it's save. Unless of course, that there is no possibility that your enemy can jump through it.
The part with the ramp I don't get - in which way and why?

All walls have been constructed, only "q" terrain was natural. Fortifications were carved from constructed walls. I did neither build nor draw floor above tiles that already have "F" fortifications or "O" walls, as those already come with floors above them, so only separately constructed "_" floors are shown.

I used this design because I though there is something like "if BD can't path to the other side of door, it can't be broken", which I have already used once with hatches above staircase, though I was now unsure if it works even when there is open space in tiles around this lower staircase or if just one path is allowed there.

The fourth question was me making sure dwarves can go to the tile of that support and go up the ramp to walls, other paths I asked about should be clearly ok. I am not used to use supports much.

[SaD-82]

I used this design because I though there is something like "if BD can't path to the other side of door, it can't be broken", which I have already used once with hatches above staircase, though I was now unsure if it works even when there is open space in tiles around this lower staircase or if just one path is allowed there.

Buildingdestroyers on the ground can't break your hatches, as they have to be on the same floor as your hatch. Open space around won't allow this. Another stair/ramp would - but the floor on top prevents this too. There you are safe (if the hatch is forbidden - something you (not you in particular) might forget to do).
In theory this should work for flying enemies, too.
But I've encountered in 34.11 that my hatches were broken by them (used a similar construction as watchtowers in an evil biome - and since then I never build these anymore).
Maybe it was just a bug. Maybe now it would work. But I wouldn't rely my fortress on this bet.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Clarification:

If a building destroyer can stand TWO tiles away from a building, in a location where it can path to the actual building site, it can destroy it.

This is not safe:

Code: [Select]

D++
As a building destroyer will stand on the right + tile, where he is able to path to the site of the door.

This is safe (viewed from the side):

Code: [Select]

>D+
XOO
<++
as long as the building destroyer comes from beneath. This is because it must stand directly next to the door, and cannot destroy in that position. (See Tuftedstockades' "pet" troll.)

This is also safe:

Code: [Select]

H++
XOO
<++
(H is a hatch over a downstair.)

Because the building destroyer cannot path to the hatch, it cannot destroy it.

This is NOT safe:

Code: [Select]

H+>
XOX
<+<
The building destroyer doesn't even have to go up the right staircase! It has a path, so that's enough. (IIRC?)

[SaD-82]

This is also safe:

Code: [Select]

H++
XOO
<++
(H is a hatch over a downstair.)

Because the building destroyer cannot path to the hatch, it cannot destroy it.

It can, if it's unforbidden.

This is NOT safe:

Code: [Select]

H+>
XOX
<+<
The building destroyer doesn't even have to go up the right staircase! It has a path, so that's enough. (IIRC?)

Who would build this? 

[PatrikLundell]

Unless things have changed, a single tile in front of a door has a tendency to attract building destroyer who then get stuck by the incredible gravitation of the destructible object, being unable to walk away (sometimes not even juicy prey to squish was enough). I've actually had that problem where the BD came in diagonally from the side, ended up just in front of the door, and then being unable to back out one tile (perfectly pathable) to destroy the door (this was on a device with a door in each end of a corridor with repeating menacing spikes in between. There were also raising drawbridges outside the doors). This was all on 0.40.19+, though.
Come to think of it, I've lost a bunch of guard dogs in 0.42.01-02 where a stair led up to a door with a the dog inside and a grate as the floor (looking down on the ground above an entrance). Invader trolls kept smashing the locked door and the grate. I also had a strange issue with a titan who got locked up, allowing the caravan to get both in and out, but the trade liaison thought it was a good idea to first leave to the east and then decide to leave mid south instead, so the titan got lose and killed the thick skulled liaison (the skull was thick enough to let the caravan leave before he died...). The titan then returned to the dog house, and I unlocked the door in the mean time, which allowed the titan to destroy the door and the grate and then chase the dog.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

This is also safe:

Code: [Select]

H++
XOO
<++
(H is a hatch over a downstair.)

Because the building destroyer cannot path to the hatch, it cannot destroy it.

It can, if it's unforbidden.

This is NOT safe:

Code: [Select]

H+>
XOX
<+<
The building destroyer doesn't even have to go up the right staircase! It has a path, so that's enough. (IIRC?)

Who would build this? 

First: Thanks, I forgot to include "forbidden." Obviously, it could simply walk through otherwise. For that matter, the "door next to down staircase" scenario also requires the door to be forbidden, although in some situations a building destroyer would simply stand there. Maybe.

Second: I don't know who would build it, it's just good to know that they just need a path, not a path in the direction they'd "be destroying it" in real life.

[Detros]

ILUSTROUS GUIDE

Thanks for your ilustrous guide. I am trying to use that

Code: [Select]

H++
XOO
<++
with hatch forbidden during attack and enemies coming from below in my design. "+" = "_" = constructed floor on that level
Just one level of difference should be enough, right?

Code: [Select]

fort   +HO
       O<+   enemies

And when I have ring of walls and want to put roof over that room I need to put that just above tiles of that room and not above its walls as those already came with floors above them, right?

Code: [Select]

.+++.
O   O
OOOOO
where "." is marking floor from below wall here.

[SaD-82]

Just one level of difference should be enough, right?

Right.

And when I have ring of walls and want to put roof over that room I need to put that just above tiles of that room and not above its walls as those already came with floors above them, right?

Technically, not, but right.

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

ILUSTROUS GUIDE

Thanks for your ilustrous guide. I am trying to use that

Code: [Select]

H++
XOO
<++
with hatch forbidden during attack and enemies coming from below in my design. "+" = "_" = constructed floor on that level
Just one level of difference should be enough, right?

Code: [Select]

fort   +HO
       O<+   enemies

And when I have ring of walls and want to put roof over that room I need to put that just above tiles of that room and not above its walls as those already came with floors above them, right?

Code: [Select]

.+++.
O   O
OOOOO
where "." is marking floor from below wall here.

Glad to be of help! Yes, only one level of is required; I only did two to better illustrate. And yes, every constructed wall comes with a "floor" above it, preventing things from climbing diagonally in your example.