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[Neonivek]

So here is kind of the thing about Dating Sims and I know I am going to insult a lot of people by saying this... but they ALL universally suck!

They are all about doing exactly what your date wants, saying what they want to hear, subverting your personality, likes, and dislikes in order to forge yourself into basically what they want as opposed to being a real life human being. Where the most you can hope for is that you have no personality or real input as it is.

Which, honestly, at first I didn't mind but things have a tendency to break you over time and become retroactively worse and worse as more follow the formula. Think Jump Scare movie, the first one you seen you probably thought it was amazing! now you think it is trash.

And even now I wouldn't mind so much if I could gleam some humor from it (and Hatoful Boyfriend is more a parody on how shallow and meaningless dating sims are), but there is something inherently offensive about them that is striking me right in the heart.

Heck "I" wanted to make a parody of Dating Sims about a guy or girl who visits a quiet little town only to date a series of people who turn out to be psychotic murderers who will kill you if you displease them... so you have to go around town sneaking into their house, reading their diaries, and talking to other people for hints at how to respond on those dates or else they will chop you up and bury you in their back yards like everyone else who came to this town.

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Yet, come on... they can't ALL suck just because every single one I've played and stumbled across sucked. It isn't like I am playing them non-stop, and I've seen interesting mechanics in a few.

But are there dating sims out there where it is about having a relationship and not being someone's temporary slave? Where saying 'You know what, I don't want to go to the ballet, lets go to the arcade because I like it there and this is our fifth date' and it isn't the wrong choice.

[Shadowlord]

I don't have a real answer, but I hear there's this one called real life that's pretty realistic.

[Zangi]

So a dating sim where the prospective buddy/date also considers your feelings/wants and may agree to your requests if they like to hang out with you.

... Kinda like a game that is not solely focused on the protagonist getting the +friend/+date bar up and that maybe the NPC will hang out with others and may be trying to woo someone else.
(Yes, we know you are just trying to get into someone's pants if you are just showing up to please someone, but actually are not interested in it.  Damned protagonist.)

Not really... but, maybe http://www.redshirtgame.com/
Not a dating sim, but err, you can date and make friends.

[Trapezohedron]

Narrative Imperative kills a lot of things such as free will of choice.

So, while the idea is nice, this is unlikely to happen because something important must happen elsewhere at specific [place].

[Muz]

A good number of dating sims, both Western and Eastern really do suck. I think people just suck at dating. Everyone who makes these games actually thinks that dating is about saying what your target wants to hear. So the mechanics are based on this, and it actually seems off. People can't even make a proper dating site.

I actually seriously considered making a dating sim. Then we decided to make a dating site to get more accurate data (and make money). Then we realized... hell, Mark Zuckerberg failed at this and his failed attempt became this creepy stalker site known as Facebook.

So yeah, there's a paradox where you can't actually make a good dating game without knowing the mechanics of real dating. Once you figure it out, it's too fun to try it in real life - where you can either get lots of dates or make a billion dollar dating site.

It's similar to the productivity app paradox - productive people would be doing important things, rather than making productivity apps.

But think of dating like giving a string to a cat. The cat doesn't actually want the string, it just wants to chase it around. Once it gets the string, it gets bored. Dating game mechanics should follow this principle. Once you tell the target everything she wants to hear, she'll get bored of you and you end up friendzoned.

[EuchreJack]

I thought the Sims games handled dating in a way that I theoretically call accurate:
Proximity = Relationship

I also theorize that Friend-zoning is also semi-myth.  It's more a descriptor of those who are friends but want more rather than the definition of those who want friends but nothing more.  I strongly suspect most people that think they got Friend-zoned were never considered "Romantic Material" in the first place.

But what do I know?  I don't date.  I only know what I've observed.

A good number of dating sims, both Western and Eastern really do suck. I think people just suck at dating. Everyone who makes these games actually thinks that dating is about saying what your target wants to hear. So the mechanics are based on this, and it actually seems off. People can't even make a proper dating site.

I actually seriously considered making a dating sim. Then we decided to make a dating site to get more accurate data (and make money). Then we realized... hell, Mark Zuckerberg failed at this and his failed attempt became this creepy stalker site known as Facebook.

So yeah, there's a paradox where you can't actually make a good dating game without knowing the mechanics of real dating. Once you figure it out, it's too fun to try it in real life - where you can either get lots of dates or make a billion dollar dating site.

It's similar to the productivity app paradox - productive people would be doing important things, rather than making productivity apps.

But think of dating like giving a string to a cat. The cat doesn't actually want the string, it just wants to chase it around. Once it gets the string, it gets bored. Dating game mechanics should follow this principle. Once you tell the target everything she wants to hear, she'll get bored of you and you end up friendzoned.

Agreed.  One thing I'm sure of is that most dating sims suffer from their target audience and the people most predisposed to creating them.

[Bouchart]

Does Plumbers Don't Wear Ties count as a dating sim?  There are choices and a plot that involves dating, among other things.

Heck "I" wanted to make a parody of Dating Sims about a guy or girl who visits a quiet little town only to date a series of people who turn out to be psychotic murderers who will kill you if you displease them... so you have to go around town sneaking into their house, reading their diaries, and talking to other people for hints at how to respond on those dates or else they will chop you up and bury you in their back yards like everyone else who came to this town.

I had an idea for a dating sim in a post-apocalyptic world, like in a Fallout setting or something.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Guys, what is going on here? First and foremost, dating sims barely meet the definition of a "game." They're poorly written time-wasters at best, and at worst: Malicious in their targeting of strange, online loneliness.

Secondly, that isn't to say that the "genre"--if we can give it that much legitimacy--is devoid of potential. Like Neonivek said, there's certainly a lot of room for humor. In a somewhat relevant example (that isn't the aforementioned Hatoful Boyfriend.) look at Yandere Simulator. It's a game all about being completely psychotic in your worship of a teen boy and it's brilliant.

Finally, in terms of an actual, "Serious" dating simulator--there isn't one. Not a good one anyways, and frankly I don't think that will ever be possible. Unless you can fully recreate the intelligence of someone who is oddly compatible with you on a disc it's just not gonna happen. I don't think it ever SHOULD happen either, just go out and meet some people--it's a lot easier than you think.

fakeedit: I will say, these suggestions for parody dating sims are hilarious!

[Nighthawk]

@ OP
If you're looking for a dating sim that pokes fun at the fact that all dating sims are about manipulation, read this RPS article on Ladykiller In A Bind (warning: game is NSFW) and see if you're interested. It's not out yet, but it will be pretty soon.

@ Urist McScoopbeard
The "are dating sims games" argument has been going on for ages. The people who like them say "yes, of course they're games," and the people who don't like them go "psshh, no they're not."

I'd avoid bringing up the topic in future threads, unless you want to incite a huge argument a dignified, gentlemanly debate.

[Folly]

Do all dating sims suck? Pretty much, yeah, to varying degrees.

Do all visual novels with dating aspects suck? Certainly not. If you're looking for an entertaining experience in that medium, look for games that prioritize storytelling over romantic interactions. There are some great ones out there.

[RedKing]

Consider that dating sims are created by game developers, who by definition are people who probably don't date a lot.

[Trapezohedron]

Do all dating sims suck? Pretty much, yeah, to varying degrees.

Do all visual novels with dating aspects suck? Certainly not. If you're looking for an entertaining experience in that medium, look for games that prioritize storytelling over romantic interactions. There are some great ones out there.

I prefered that VN where you start with an average dating sim, but subsequent playthroughs had them go deja vu and realize you were only playing for the sake of completion. Horror ensues.

[Aoi]

Do all dating sims suck? Pretty much, yeah, to varying degrees.

Do all visual novels with dating aspects suck? Certainly not. If you're looking for an entertaining experience in that medium, look for games that prioritize storytelling over romantic interactions. There are some great ones out there.

I prefered that VN where you start with an average dating sim, but subsequent playthroughs had them go deja vu and realize you were only playing for the sake of completion. Horror ensues.

Kagetsu Tohya? Though that's not really a dating sim at all.

[Neonivek]

I also theorize that Friend-zoning is also semi-myth.  It's more a descriptor of those who are friends but want more rather than the definition of those who want friends but nothing more.  I strongly suspect most people that think they got Friend-zoned were never considered "Romantic Material" in the first place.

It isn't so much a myth as much as it is people giving a name to an observed phenomenon.

You really can become platonic with someone in such a way that the idea of romance becomes wrong OR value someone's friendship so much that romance is actually a downgrade.

The Myth is the idea that people have this sort of box in their head that they can put people into. Call it the "Storage Compartment Friendzone Myth". When in reality "Friendzone" is just how someone feels about someone.

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As for whether or not Dating Sims are games.

While they do take on the visual novel format, the goal of it is to have such fantastic dates that the other person will like and/or want to sleep with you.

The fact that there is a goal that you "achieve"

[Rolan7]

Yeah!  A good friendship is worth too much to risk on romance, and would be at best lateral...  For me, it'd almost certainly be a downgrade.  For a *good* friendship, anyway, which is a rare and valuable thing.  Makes sense not to want to risk or sacrifice that.
Though maybe it's different for people attracted to just one gender.  I've been in a "Friendship, but I guess I want to go romantic" before, and it really sucked.  Lost a potential good friend to the ensuing awkwardness.

@OP
That idea does seem like an excellent... "deconstruction"?  I don't think a single-player game will be able to dynamically simulate any sort of real relationship well for a while yet.  It's all script-based really, from VNs to Fallout 4.  Just a matter of how much script they write.  (Skyrim's hearth-whatever DLC being almost hilariously lazy in that regard)

@ Urist McScoopbeard
The "are dating sims games" argument has been going on for ages. The people who like them say "yes, of course they're games," and the people who don't like them go "psshh, no they're not."

Eh?  Yes, of course they're games.
They're arguably not as interactive as other games, but modern CoD isn't as interactive as Half Life.  They're still interactive media, even if they're on the low end of the interactivity spectrum.  Hell dating sims have branching scripts, which is by definition interactivity (and lacking from many games).  Aiming a gun around is technically interactive, but isn't really interacting with the story.

Consider that dating sims are created by game developers, who by definition are people who probably don't date a lot.

Low hanging fruit, but I did smile a little.