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Author Topic: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation  (Read 3579 times)

xXDzepniXx

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Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« on: November 11, 2015, 04:07:51 am »

One understands the Dwarvern nature, our home, our civilization, our culture. One knows the idea of us Dwarves, our struggles, our past, where we come from. One knows we must keep this tradition safe, we must do this to survive in this world. One must understand, to do this is to "rid" of the alien in our territory, in our world. This alien that I speak of, that will be spoken of is the Elf and the Goblin. These two... things... are they things? Do we consider them a living entity? I wonder how generous we are with that. I personally believe they are nothing.

Chapter I: The Engravings of Hatred

Before I begin my engravings, one must understand the feud between Dwarves and Elves, and the feud between Dwarves and Goblins. Of course, we all know this, we must survive every season from these.. things, these aliens. Dwarves and Goblins. Who came first? Better question is, who attacked first? Who started the feud? The Goblins. Goblins are nothing more than barbarous, pure evil aliens. Their hatred goes to everything in the entire world of which we settle our fortress' in. Why are they there? They are a mistake, an alien of which should of never existed. These barbarous aliens come to destroy our homeland, our culture, our peoples. Yet we allow them? If they cleanse us, why can't we be as cruel as they, and cleanse them? Come now, fortress leaders, we all know our mine cart shotgun science. We all know we are more intelligent than the inferior alien. Although, one must consider, if we are so intelligent, why do we not already rid of them? I ask myself this every season, I ask myself, to what point should they be allowed to live if they do nothing but raid us, kill caravans, kill us, Human's, those filthy creatures. Why do we keep them? Annihilate them! Destroy their existence, their past, their history, their culture. Everything about them, erase them! They are nothing more than the stain on the face of history on this world. Do you wish to keep your fortress going? I assume you do, and I do to. I come to you fellow fortress leader, with love from my heart to you and your Dwarves, as well as mine. I come to save your Dwarves, you and my Dwarves as well as myself. Although to do this, I need your help, you are the founder of history, your name will be engraved for helping the world we live in destroy these aliens. Take in consideration the Elves. Who are they to come and insult our traditions? Who are they to insult our culture as Dwarves? I know we destroy their beloved trees, but look at them, they torture the trees, and plus they cut their own. Hypocrites! Horrid hypocrites! These are one of the worst of the aliens, they not have a hatred in history with all us fortress leaders, but in Dwarvern history as well. Come now, it's time to show who is the alpha, we specifically are the alpha. We will show them this, they will no longer go along to invade us, or criticize us. It's basically cleansing the world of these aliens of which are evil, inferior, and must be destroyed. It's not wrong, they are not even living entities. At the same time, we must cleanse our territories and them. So my friends, my fellow settlers, it is time to do this, it is time to show who is the alpha, we.


Chapter II: Preparation of Absolute Destruction

My plans are simple, I will destroy the enemy through micro-management logistics that my manager will help me. My military will as well, they are one of the most important in this operation to make sure while I strip my Goblin prisoners nothing happens. I will put these aliens to their place, I will not throw them in a pit, but rather I will make sure to put them in rooms which I will separate the men and women. I will make my Dwarves dump vomit on them, they are rats, they are aliens! They must be crushed, I will do more than that, I will make sure of their suffering before I use magma mist to cleanse them. They will suffer in a horrifying death, but one that a rat deserves. Rats shouldn't be with us, they should be separated from us, these aliens shouldn't walk among us. They deserve no quarter. Ah, yes the pillars of destruction, our service to the world will help our civilization of Dwarves to prosper among us, we will live in harmony with no more horrors. One knows there is of course Dwarves who don't agree with something fortress leaders' have to say, on the other hand of course, better than acting like the aliens. Killing in a barbarous way. Such horrid actions should come with horrid consequences. The results could be great in numbers, after all it would be a large statistic of their deaths of which would do a fine thing. Get rid of the alien one by one, one magma mist tile for every filthy Gobin and Elf. I wish I can burn the Elven retreats, they themselves should be cleansed, carried to prison and sold for about 10 Dwarf Bucks. Pathetic, they should be annihilated, they have no use, perhaps just entertainment. Remember, ridding the alien will help us win our civilization the alpha status, no more inferiors, and of course, peace and harmony.


Chapter III: The struggle in Idathatath

The fortress is filled with peoples, peasants, axelords, possibly vampires, and others. There's a farming industry, no drink, but two wells and hopefully no poison in the water. I suppose you can say, it's great! I agree, if we take out the sieges, if we take out the fact there's a bunch of forgotten beasts trying to kill us. Oh, and fire breathing titans who burn down the whole forest, and cause ash in the air, and flaming Dwarves. Every season I would try my best as a leader to bring our fortress even further into higher economy, higher value, more migrants to help out the struggle in the chambers. Help out throwing those aliens in the pit, then well... let the crazy Dwarf pull the levers. Besides that of course, one has to deal with the insane Dwarves, those I wipe my tears as I chop them to pieces. They were once someone in my civilization... no more. I have my graves filled with statues, engravings to remember those who fell in spite to defend our glorious civilization. Those who died due to stresses of life, and eventually turned melancholic. The reason I keep mentioning these poor Dwarves is because they were something, they were not at fault for their death. Although the aliens were. To look through the books of legends, to look at the historical peoples and events, and to see civilizations ripped apart by Elves and Goblins, who is at fault? It isn't Dwarvern peoples fault that they were invaded, it was the aliens' barbarous nature. Why should these people suffer? Why if nature created us, why if nature is so cruel to make this happen, why can't we be as cruel as nature? Again, it wasn't the Dwarvern peoples fault they were invaded and killed, executed for no reason. We cannot blame ourselves, even if we were to rid the alien, it may seem barbarous, but can one blame oneself? As stated before, to make peace is to rid the alien which creates the chaos. In the talk of morals, we see this as a horrible concept, on the other hand lets not our morals come to play with what we have to say. What has to be done, has to be done, for the future of the civilization. For the future of the Dwarvern peoples. We cannot blame ourselves for actions we may take against these aliens. Try to understand you cannot blame yourself, it is not your fault. Those who let morals come to play with their decisions, their ability to make decision, are the ones who are useless. Keep morals out, else nothing can be achieved, then the barbarous aliens would simply kill us off. Then who is to blame for our inability to act?


Chapter IV: The Crazed Sieges

On 70, the Goblin siege of "Crazed Sieges" has happened. They intended to destroy us with 60+ units. What have we done? This is their first coming to us, we are nothing but a town, and yet they come with no reason? Does this not prove my point on barbarous nature? The Elves have been working with them, I have been reading my books, my legends. They are expanding and helping those filthy Goblins. They wish our demise, as much as the Goblins do. Although I suspect the Elves will act as the northern Elves did. Use the enemy then kill them off, with no shred of existence of the civilization in the end. This is what I talk about, if one doesn't kill the aliens, the aliens will simply kill us. They will do anything to destroy us, the history is written with hatred on both sides. Think, to let the alien live, and kill yourself, your fortress, is it quite worth it? Is it not better to retire, then move to the next fort so you can help that fort out, then come back to the main one. Or is it better to be exterminated? The Elves would kick out your fellow Dwarves you waited so much to expand throughout the map so you can spread your civilization. Or they will simply kill those Dwarves off. Same goes with the Goblins, so is it really worth it? This is the question one must ask oneself, of course with no talk of morals. These sieges will come to be more and more, because I have taken over 30 prisoners, the Elves will soon have their part too. The map and the books are clear, they are expanding on the map, and it is clear to me that they want my demise, and the Goblins' demise. They themselves will lay siege on everything in our continent, try to take it over, in their barbarous and tyrannical nature. Butcher any creatures whom they deem unworthy, or undesirable. Kill our kings and queens through brutal and savage executions like chopping them to pieces. Both Elves and Goblins want to do this, why shouldn't we? Why should we stand in the light while they come to take our toes off first, then ears, then fingers, slowly to death. Why should we allow that? Why can't we be as brutal? Perhaps not as brutal in terms of execution. On the other hand to get rid of them would be nothing wrong, if we speak without morals. This would have a massive affect on our great children of whom we raise that will become historical figures in our world that will make our world greater. Who are we, and why would we allow the Goblins and Elves to destroy those children?


Chapter V: Anti-Goblinism and Anti-Elfism

The reason I bring out so much about hatred in these chapters about Elves and Goblins, and I repeat myself over and over again in the chapters is because I want to underline many points. This is the last chapter I will do that, the next chapters will deal with history as a whole. Starting off, I wish to wire into your brain that Dwarves are much more interesting, our Dwarvern history and culture reflects a lot in the world we create. Without us, the humans wouldn't be able to get metals, we are the ones who start the world out with everything. Think about it, we live underground, we can't stand living in the sun, while the humans cannot stand living underground eating plump helmets. They wouldn't be able to dig down into the earth with lava, magma, they cannot use it either. Our fortress is much more prepared against attacks, while theirs is nothing. A necromancer with about 10 zombies can come into a whole human town and massacre everyone. While it's much more difficult for Dwarves. The question I want you to think about is this; why allow such a waste of culture, and history making? Is it so worth it to allow our Dwarvern peoples to be destroyed by the enemy of whom is merely barbarous? Or by the enemy of whom is merely hypocritical and as well barbarous. They absolutely turn barbarous when they need to, and when they want to. Perhaps we turn barbarous in need as well, although we have to consider a lot of things, Goblins have their barbarous nature, they kill anything they can. Elves kill each other, eat each other they destroy people who don't follow their culture. Which is basically oppressing. Same goes with Goblins, except they have no culture, unless you consider barbarous nature a culture. Removing the problem to the issue will have no horrid side effect, Elves don't use anything but wood, Goblins have weak armor, are tiny, we can't use their armor. They're just useless in general, but Dwarves, if we were slaves we would be mining the hottest layers of the Earth. While, humans would die trying. Underline in your head these questions, who's fault is it to kill who? Remember all the points I brought out, if you fail to remember, reread. Is it worth it to have a Dwarvern race annihilated when we are a valuable resource, compared to blood thirsty Elves and Goblins? Who started all of this hatred? Who is to blame for the hatred? There are many more that are underlined, reread if you have forgotten them. This is just brief, if you don't want to, then there's no point in reading this.


I have planned to put up pictures for my chapters, I will be including more and more chapters, I will quickly start to put up pictures. I hope you all come to the same path as I, and I hope we can understand each other, and of course, the cause. My master Dwarvern thinkers are thinking of a new song for our cause, for our settlement. At the same time, we are thinking more about what we can do to improve our ways of dealing with this.. problem.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2015, 12:43:11 pm by xXDzepniXx »
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Dozebôm Lolumzalěs

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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2015, 09:26:47 pm »

Hmmph.  I like dwarves, but I like elves too.  I won't listen to your peer pressure.  I only kill the goblins when they invade me, and I either just capture them and then use them as training/sacrifice to Armok (both quick ends) or simply kill them (as quickly as possible, as much for me as for them).  The elves I never bother.  I like the alcohols they sometimes send me, and the cloth is useful for the Annual Rag-Making Fest.  Also they carry off last year's rags.  Oh, and the animals!  Great animals they bring.

But anyway, they're all sentients, so torturing them is...  unthinkable.  So the DwXXvXX InXXXsiXiXn will arrive shortly.

[Edit by jwoodward48df: censoring... importent secrit detaels]  <-- so that the spellcheckers cant spi on me
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xXDzepniXx

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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2015, 01:19:58 am »

How horrid is it to destroy the alien, which destroys you?
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Bumber

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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2015, 01:39:37 am »

How horrid is it to destroy the alien, which destroys you?
Do civilized nations torture violent criminals?

Were the WWII era Germans all put to death?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 01:42:57 am by Bumber »
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xXDzepniXx

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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2015, 09:12:14 am »

They were removed. Take a look at Poland after WWII, and Czechoslovakia. They both removed German's from their territories, also Czech's pretty much had no reason, Germany treated them well. Although Poland, well... that's another story. You can read "Fires of Hatred, Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth-Century Europe".

By the way, civilized nations recognize the fact there is an alien. Then they recognize what is the solution to the problem of this alien. At the same time, we can take a look at Rome, what did they do to criminals? Crucify them, we're actually more merciful than that if you think about it. Magma mist and shotgun mine carts are fairly easy deaths. Clean too.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 09:14:54 am by xXDzepniXx »
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Montieth

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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2015, 09:41:01 am »

How horrid is it to destroy the alien, which destroys you?
Do civilized nations torture violent criminals?

Were the WWII era Germans all put to death?

Don't confuse modern civilization with Civilization. They're not the same thing. What did dwarves in Tolkein's stories do to Goblins and Orcs? The objective of the Goblins and Orcs was utter extermination of all things not of their own kind, men, elves, dwarves, etc. Dwarves responded to that in the only way possible or rational.

Also Germans were human, after the vein of vile political will that had started WWII was expunged we paid money to rebuild Germany. The same with Japan. Goblins aren't just another nationality. They're dwarves or elves twisted and made by their evil god. Don't humanize them.
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*The sword is sharp, the spear is long, The arrow swift, the Gate is strong; The heart is bold that looks on gold; The dwarves no more shall suffer wrong.
*The dwarves of yore made mighty spells, While hammers fells like ringing bells In places deep, where dark things sleep, In hollow halls beneath the fells.
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xXDzepniXx

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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2015, 11:56:37 am »

How horrid is it to destroy the alien, which destroys you?
Do civilized nations torture violent criminals?

Were the WWII era Germans all put to death?

Don't confuse modern civilization with Civilization. They're not the same thing. What did dwarves in Tolkein's stories do to Goblins and Orcs? The objective of the Goblins and Orcs was utter extermination of all things not of their own kind, men, elves, dwarves, etc. Dwarves responded to that in the only way possible or rational.

Also Germans were human, after the vein of vile political will that had started WWII was expunged we paid money to rebuild Germany. The same with Japan. Goblins aren't just another nationality. They're dwarves or elves twisted and made by their evil god. Don't humanize them.

That is exactly what I am trying to tell everyone. Good for you!

Ah, and my master Dwarves, nobles, military are coming up with a song of our kind. One that will open the hearts of Dwarves and enable us even further to our quest for exterminating the alien.
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Bumber

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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2015, 01:49:47 am »

How horrid is it to destroy the alien, which destroys you?
Do civilized nations torture violent criminals?

Were the WWII era Germans all put to death?
Don't confuse modern civilization with Civilization. They're not the same thing. What did dwarves in Tolkein's stories do to Goblins and Orcs? The objective of the Goblins and Orcs was utter extermination of all things not of their own kind, men, elves, dwarves, etc. Dwarves responded to that in the only way possible or rational.

Also Germans were human, after the vein of vile political will that had started WWII was expunged we paid money to rebuild Germany. The same with Japan. Goblins aren't just another nationality. They're dwarves or elves twisted and made by their evil god. Don't humanize them.
It's about ethical values, not time period. Toady's dwarves are not Tolkein's dwarves. They defend themselves when attacked. They don't run genocidal campaigns against an entire race, lynching any mango-peddling elf or goblin mayor they come across.

[ENTITY:MOUNTAIN]
        [ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:UNTHINKABLE]
        [ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION:UNTHINKABLE]
        [ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:UNTHINKABLE]
        [ETHIC:TORTURE_ANIMALS:UNTHINKABLE]

It wouldn't even make a shred of difference if goblins weren't sapient. Dwarves still wouldn't torture them.

I think we have some humans in dwarves' beard among us.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 02:06:07 am by Bumber »
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

omega_dwarf

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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2015, 10:17:03 am »

Yeah, I mean, the OP is interesting for roleplay purposes, but I think that generally, most people on the forum aren't quite so bent on destruction (myself certainly included.) That being said, I think everyone gets that what the OP is saying is just for roleplay, so I hope this doesn't evolve into some breed of forum war.

xXDzepniXx

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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2015, 10:29:54 am »

How horrid is it to destroy the alien, which destroys you?
Do civilized nations torture violent criminals?

Were the WWII era Germans all put to death?
Don't confuse modern civilization with Civilization. They're not the same thing. What did dwarves in Tolkein's stories do to Goblins and Orcs? The objective of the Goblins and Orcs was utter extermination of all things not of their own kind, men, elves, dwarves, etc. Dwarves responded to that in the only way possible or rational.

Also Germans were human, after the vein of vile political will that had started WWII was expunged we paid money to rebuild Germany. The same with Japan. Goblins aren't just another nationality. They're dwarves or elves twisted and made by their evil god. Don't humanize them.
It's about ethical values, not time period. Toady's dwarves are not Tolkein's dwarves. They defend themselves when attacked. They don't run genocidal campaigns against an entire race, lynching any mango-peddling elf or goblin mayor they come across.

[ENTITY:MOUNTAIN]
        [ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:UNTHINKABLE]
        [ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION:UNTHINKABLE]
        [ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:UNTHINKABLE]
        [ETHIC:TORTURE_ANIMALS:UNTHINKABLE]

It wouldn't even make a shred of difference if goblins weren't sapient. Dwarves still wouldn't torture them.

I think we have some humans in dwarves' beard among us.

Ah, but we can always do it another way. For example, put the Goblins in cages in a dump, under the dump is bars, under the bars is lava, and we dump into the lava, make magma mist. Poof, tons of burning of the fat, skin, tonnes of fun. At the same time, they get what they deserve as filthy Goblins.

Elves... just kill them. Please.
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Bearskie

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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2015, 11:30:42 am »

Given that members of the sapient races do tend to join different civilizations, I find it hard to believe that a goblin is intrinsically evil as such, especially when considering the upcoming multi-race update. You would hardly see a goblin or elf ruler in Tolkien's worlds; DF races appear to be far more tolerant than that.

They do have tendencies in certain values - cruelty, immoderation and such - but these exist as ranges and not absolutes. Uniquely enough, one could set entity ethics to be in direct opposition to racial values, resulting in a conflict of beliefs amongst its citizens. The civilization acts in a way that its own people disagrees with. Interesting, aye?

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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2015, 03:14:46 pm »

If goblins aren't intrinsically evil, why are their entity raws entity:evil?

chekm8 atheists

In all seriousness though I tend to draw a line between normal Dorfs and Overseer-led Dorfs. The Overseer ones don't tend to operate under normal sane rules, I don't think Dwarves would normally desire to flood the world with magma for example. As for the topic of exterminating all goblin kind, I could see the Dwarves accidentally doing that through warfare but I don't see that as something they'd intentionally do. Even the goblins with all their fondness for torture and kidnapping of other children are capable of raising those children as their own (to the point of being supplanted by them, as is the case when kidnapped elves behave as goblins do). Heck, when the Dwarves capture a goblin centre they let the goblins be.

Admittedly, now I wish to see things like rebellions or tyrants issuing massacres on conquered peoples in DF. If a human vampire warlord walks into a forest retreat, how long does it take for it to lick the red off all the trees? How long does it take before a noble elf adventurer manages to put some arrows in between the vampire warlord's eyes? Do the Elves retaliate and eat the flesh of entire human towns in revenge?

Montieth

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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2015, 12:45:55 am »

It's about ethical values, not time period. Toady's dwarves are not Tolkein's dwarves. They defend themselves when attacked. They don't run genocidal campaigns against an entire race, lynching any mango-peddling elf or goblin mayor they come across.

[ENTITY:MOUNTAIN]
        [ETHIC:TORTURE_AS_EXAMPLE:UNTHINKABLE]
        [ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_INFORMATION:UNTHINKABLE]
        [ETHIC:TORTURE_FOR_FUN:UNTHINKABLE]
        [ETHIC:TORTURE_ANIMALS:UNTHINKABLE]

It wouldn't even make a shred of difference if goblins weren't sapient. Dwarves still wouldn't torture them.

So ethical values trump survival as an absolute? That way lies death.

You are perhaps not aware that the western allies were prepared to utterly destroy Germany and Japan. If it took dropping A bombs on all of Japan that was in the cards if necessary. Does the west then count as Civilized or not?

Check your history of cultures. Most cultures when faced with utter destruction by another culture, if they had the ability removed the problem. See also Carthage. Those that didn't have the ability or will perished. See also the Moriori.

Perhaps the dwarves of my games just need to wait for the right goblin siege trade embassy to come and setup in the trade depot....


-judge not not the exemplars of a culture, judge on their mean.
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*“Under the Mountain dark and tall The King has come unto his hall! His foe is dead, the Worm of Dread, And ever so his foes shall fall.
*The sword is sharp, the spear is long, The arrow swift, the Gate is strong; The heart is bold that looks on gold; The dwarves no more shall suffer wrong.
*The dwarves of yore made mighty spells, While hammers fells like ringing bells In places deep, where dark things sleep, In hollow halls beneath the fells.
-from The Hobbit (Dwarves Battle Song)”

xXDzepniXx

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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2015, 02:54:19 am »

If goblins aren't intrinsically evil, why are their entity raws entity:evil?

chekm8 atheists

In all seriousness though I tend to draw a line between normal Dorfs and Overseer-led Dorfs. The Overseer ones don't tend to operate under normal sane rules, I don't think Dwarves would normally desire to flood the world with magma for example. As for the topic of exterminating all goblin kind, I could see the Dwarves accidentally doing that through warfare but I don't see that as something they'd intentionally do. Even the goblins with all their fondness for torture and kidnapping of other children are capable of raising those children as their own (to the point of being supplanted by them, as is the case when kidnapped elves behave as goblins do). Heck, when the Dwarves capture a goblin centre they let the goblins be.

Admittedly, now I wish to see things like rebellions or tyrants issuing massacres on conquered peoples in DF. If a human vampire warlord walks into a forest retreat, how long does it take for it to lick the red off all the trees? How long does it take before a noble elf adventurer manages to put some arrows in between the vampire warlord's eyes? Do the Elves retaliate and eat the flesh of entire human towns in revenge?

How can you accidentally ethnic cleanse? That's like saying my Dwarvern army came into the town and killed everyone accidentally, or moved them accidentally from one place to another, while half of them died.
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Re: Out-With the Goblins, the Elves: The Preparation
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2015, 11:03:35 am »

-snip-

How can you accidentally ethnic cleanse? That's like saying my Dwarvern army came into the town and killed everyone accidentally, or moved them accidentally from one place to another, while half of them died.

That sounds strangely reminiscent of how America dealt with the Native Americans...

But aaaanyway, yeah, within the context of this game, I don't think there are "unfortunate accidents" for entire civilizations.

Edit: Actually, I can see what he meant, if it was taking a population below a level where it could reproduce sufficiently (too dispersed, or too few to maintain a central government, resulting in chaos.) That could happen, but I don't think it can ingame...right?

For that matter, does anyone actually have records of a war with the dwarves turning into an invasion that ends a civ?
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