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[Megggas]

EBWOP:

Meant to FOS TheDarkStar in my last post.

[flabort]

flabort:  Do you think that there are any third party factions in this game?

It's possible; the only "known" is that there is a cult, the rest is unknowns. Do I expect there to be? No, but regardless I still wouldn't be surprised.

flabort: How would you approach scumhunting in a cult game?

Well, never assume that because someone is a confirmed town now, they will be later. Especially after nights.
So, approach everyone more often, take a more direct and aggressive approach to questioning, and assume every day is day 1 with higher stakes.

flabort: Would your choice for conversion night one be TheDarkStar, him being one of the two most experienced players in this game(the other being you)?

Well, I wouldn't call myself one of the most experienced... I guess in the context of this game specifically, I must be, but Deus is pretty experienced (though he's the mod), and you have a good amount of experience so far... not to mention OSG, our pending replacement. But of the current players, I guess you're right.
But as to whether TDS would be my conversion target? He's better known and would likely be a suspect for an early conversion; I'd obviously throw in some WIFOM and probably choose to pick someone else, someone less well known. Also, probably not Hector, due to the name-drop in the flavor text. Likely I would pick FillipK, actually. His low activity isn't desirable, but is a known trait and not a tell, and certainly not as bad as some others I could name. He's also a wildcard at this point, known but unknown, and somewhat good at avoiding being lynched.

Night 2 would probably depend on who was still alive, but assuming that there's been a big difference between those doing a lot of scum hunting and those who haven't, I'd pick the most experienced person of the group that's been doing the least scum hunting.


OK, questions time.

Tntey Hypothetical: At the end of the day I give you the options of a square blue gem, a round red gem, or a simple ring of gold: which do you take?
Secondly, if you knew the ring was enchanted to kill you if you were scum and turn you into scum if you were town, the red gem was enchanted to let you know who was scum and who wasn't but told the scum who you were, and the blue gem was enchanted to make you immune to being lynched, which would you take?

TDS If you had to choose someone to publicly reveal their alignment right now, who would it be?

FillipK How does my answer to FoU make you feel?

Chromatic Wasp You are given the choice to be town or scum. Which do you choose?

Saber What is the best way to avoid being chosen for a night kill?

Megggas What about you? Do you think that you'll approach scum hunting any differently for a cult?

FoU What power do you feel is more useful against a cult: A 1-shot kill, or an (not 1-shot) inspect?

Hector Hypothetical: Suddenly everyone votes you with no reason and chooses to shorten the day. You survive due to someone else's power. What do you do?

[hector13]

"This is Roxxy Roads, reporting from outside the New York offices of the self-proclaimed Guardians of Earth, where we are five hours into the sudden and unexpected shutdown of their private space station base. So far we have had no correspondence from the Guardians themselves, but unconfirmed third parties have told this reported that someone operating under the name of the Clone Lord is responsible. For now, all we can hope is that the Guardians are able to regain control before matters become more serious. Back to you, Hector.

"Thanks Roxxy. In other news, President Trump IV has banned another group of people from entering the borders of United Corporate States of America, Ltd. Left-handed mechanics will no longer be permitted entrance to our great sovereign nation after an incident involving a rabid honey badger and the CCEO's (Chiefliest Chief Executive Officer) private convoy...

hector13:  Why do you suppose the flavor text mentioned your name in particular?

'cause I'm quite obviously the most awesome player in the game, that's why. In seriousness, I have no idea. I suggest bastardry is afoot, but that's just me.

Maybe they just forgot there was a player named Hector in the game, but I'm too awesome for anyone to forget I exist, of course.

hector13: How many cult do you think there are?

At least one (obviously) and at most, two. Any more than that and they'd win after N1, unless we got a lucky lynch.

I'm inclined to say two, because if we did get a lucky lynch D1, we'd win already. Don't think that would be so good.

I was also going to vote for Chromatic Wasp as a result of random.org choosing them, but Megggas (why all the g's? Again...) jumped out at me a bit.

In your role-creation post - specifically points 5 and 7 - you seem to know already that recruited cultists maintain their abilities from pre-recruitment. How could you know this without being a cultist yourself?

Questions for the others:

TDS: What roles do you think would best counter the cultists in this game?

FoU: Why are you only questioning half the playerbase? _{^{Cultist scum!}}

Chromatic Wasp (CW): How do you feel now that I'm not actually going to vote for you?

Tntey:What are your plans for this game?

filipk: What kind of gambit are you trying to pull!?

flabort: You get the hypothetical situation. There are two bandwagons forming on two players you're not sure about, and you have the deciding vote. Player A has been lurking for most of the game, but has made some insightful observations whenever they have posted. Player B has been one of the most active, but hasn't really pressed any of the points they've made during the game. How do you vote and why?

pre-PPE: are you a mind-reader? How did you know I was also going to give you a hypothetical situation to answer?

SabreTooth: Why do you hate Logan so much? On a more serious note, what do you think of my name being in the flavour text?

PPE:

Hector Hypothetical: Suddenly everyone votes you with no reason and chooses to shorten the day. You survive due to someone else's power. What do you do?

Request a replacement while giving my monitor the double-birds because everyone is obviously stupid enough to follow a bandwagon without evidence. /hypothetical butthurt

Failing that, I'd go back through the posts to see if someone was dropping any hints about having lynch-stopping powers, then probably vote for them knowing the cultists are doing the same thing and will likely recruit them during the Night.

[FallacyofUrist]

If a guy called Trump IV is president, he's most likely a dictator.
Because, y-know.
~~~

FoU: Why are you only questioning half the playerbase? _{^{Cultist scum!}}

Because I'm lazy. That's why.

But if thou wants questions:

hector13: you do realize a player can't be cultist and scum at the same time(most likely) right?

hector13: in your opinion, would it be better to lynch an active player(in your opinion, more likely scum) or an inactive player(no opinion yet)?
~~~
Wasp: If you had a role that couldn't be converted into cult, how would you try to make use of that?
~~~
SaberToothTiger: If you received a message from the mod, supposedly a message sent from a player(your choice) to you via a special ability, in which that player claimed to be town, would you be more or less suspicious of that player?
~~~
fillipk: there are 3 players left, you being one of them, the other two being hector13 and TheDarkStar. TheDarkStar is trying to convince you that hector13 is the remaining cult or some villainous third party, and hector13 is doing likewise. Would TheDarkStar's experience in the game lead to indecision on your part?
~~~
Happy now, eh, hector? 
~~~

FoU What power do you feel is more useful against a cult: A 1-shot kill, or an (not 1-shot) inspect?

Assuming both those work during the night...

Assuming that if the cult leader goes down, all the minions go down...

If the 1-shot kill hits just another cultist, it's going to be replaced. Hitting the leader is a matter of luck and analysis.

An inspection for cult alignment(assuming alignment inspection) is more reusable, and just seems... more useful to me. Why? Because it lets you know who to lynch in the day. It's a power of information, information that can be spliced together... like so.

I would feel that the inspect is more useful, but a more experienced player might get more use out of a 1-shot kill.
~~~

[Megggas]

Megggas What about you? Do you think that you'll approach scum hunting any differently for a cult?

Yes.  I think it's crucial that we establish as much activity and content as possible during Day 1.  As people are recruited to the cult during upcoming days, we'll have a higher chance of identifying changes in behavior if there's more content to analyze during the earlier days.  We might arrive at an endgame similar to Cult Mafia 2, where the town had to lynch the cult leader specifically to avoid losing.  The more content we can establish early, the easier it will be for us to identify recruited cult members, townies, and by process of elimination, the cult leader.

I was also going to vote for Chromatic Wasp as a result of random.org choosing them, but Megggas (why all the g's? Again...) jumped out at me a bit.

In your role-creation post - specifically points 5 and 7 - you seem to know already that recruited cultists maintain their abilities from pre-recruitment. How could you know this without being a cultist yourself?

I didn't know that nor did I say that I knew that.  That idea didn't factor into my fake claiming cult-leader plan at all.  For my plan, it's irrelevant if the recruited power roles keep their abilities or not.  I would have recruited them for the purpose of stopping them from using their abilities against me.  I don't require any of their abilities for my plan to succeed. 

How did the fact that my plan involved targeting power roles give you the impression that I knew that "recruited cultists maintain their abilities from pre-recruitment"?

[Megggas]

flabort:

flabort:  Do you think that there are any third party factions in this game?

It's possible; the only "known" is that there is a cult, the rest is unknowns. Do I expect there to be? No, but regardless I still wouldn't be surprised

So you recognize it's possible, but you are kind of leaning toward there not being a third party.  What factors make you believe that a third party is a little bit unlikely?

FallacyOfUrist:

Wasp: If you had a role that couldn't be converted into cult, how would you try to make use of that?

What is the point of this question?  How does knowing what Wasp would do as a cult-immune role benefit the town?

hector13:

hector13:  Why do you suppose the flavor text mentioned your name in particular?

'cause I'm quite obviously the most awesome player in the game, that's why. In seriousness, I have no idea. I suggest bastardry is afoot, but that's just me.

Maybe they just forgot there was a player named Hector in the game, but I'm too awesome for anyone to forget I exist, of course.

What kind of bastardry do you have in mind?

[hector13]

PFP and Unvote

Spoiler: Megggas (click to show/hide)

 'cause it's late and I'm tired, and apparently I can't comprehend the written word very well.

However, your scenario doesn't seem to take into account that you, having lead several lynches (autocorrects to lunches... should lead to some amusing imagery) on townies, wouldn't fall under suspicion. If you were the Cult Leader, that may not be a good thing, given we don't know

a) if the cult leader dies do the cult lose recruiting ability

b) if the cult leader dies, do the town win as a result of cult suicide.

Could even be c) not really an issue for the cult beyond losing a member.

Referring to the BM we recently played, ATH's cop claim wasn't really accepted by people, though that was probably because it was bad play (literally hours into the game, for those not in the know) so there's also that. You'd obviously be helped by it not being an open game in which all the roles are known to all the players, though.

Equally so, it could be read as you trying to say "I'm not performing this gambit, so I obviously can't be a cultist." Though this is just me thinking out loud and trying to make myself feel better for not reading properly.

PPE: no idea on bastardry, never played a bastard game. I have a good imagination, so it could be anything from DA trying to make the players look at certain others during his updates to hidden/mystery roles being unlocked once certain conditions are met during play.

FoU: if, in my opinion, the more active player is more likely to be scum I'd vote for them. 'Tis a silly question. However, I would want to get a better read on the lurker, if not before the lynch, then most certainly after.

I'm not a fan of inactivity, to the point I'm happy to look scummy to get less active players involved, but the maxim "activity is not indicative of alignment" is something I try to live by in games of Mafia. I won't lynch someone based on how much they've posted.

Also, I'm aware that there are no scum in this game. Or at least that's what it looks like it says in the OP... For me, cultist and scum will be synonymous in this game. Just so I can be confusing

Happy that you're involving yourself with more players, arguably the hypothetical situations you laid out aren't much use though, given that two refer to roles we might not have and won't know about until a flip, after which they are likely useless to us. Further, it looks like role-fishing.

[FallacyofUrist]

Further, it looks like role-fishing.

Noted.

~~~

Wasp: If you had a role that couldn't be converted into cult, how would you try to make use of that?

What is the point of this question?  How does knowing what Wasp would do as a cult-immune role benefit the town?

How does any random voting stage question benefit the town? It isn't as much about the answer, but about how the answer is said, and the stimulus, the science. RVS questions are all about getting people talking and hopefully causing a slip up.

~~~
I'm just going to note that if this game was a bastard or semi-bastard game it would have most likely said so in the OP.
~~~

Megggas: why the 3 g's? And more importantly, what would you say would be the best RVS questions to ask(for town)?

[TheDarkStar]

TheDarkStar: timey-wimey stuff!?

idk

TDS If you had to choose someone to publicly reveal their alignment right now, who would it be?

megggas, since he's already had some suspicion on him.

TheDarkStar:

tntey: Why are you scum?
fillipk: Why are tntey's ally?
hector13: How many cult do you think there are?

What makes you think that there's a possibility that the game started with more than 1 cult?  Don't cult games usually start the cult off with just the leader at the beginning?

There's generally one initial cultist, but I've seen games that start with two.

[Megggas]

hector13:

However, your scenario doesn't seem to take into account that you, having lead several lynches (autocorrects to lunches... should lead to some amusing imagery) on townies, wouldn't fall under suspicion. If you were the Cult Leader, that may not be a good thing, given we don't know

a) if the cult leader dies do the cult lose recruiting ability

b) if the cult leader dies, do the town win as a result of cult suicide.

Could even be c) not really an issue for the cult beyond losing a member.

1.  My plan banked on the idea that my fake claim and my behavior before fake claiming would seem very reasonable for a townie, but totally insane and risky for a cult leader.  My first two mislynches would be forgiven based on the idea that my "role ability" already established that two of the "surveyed" people were regular townies, so the final person must be the cult leader.  If I came under serious suspicion by Day 3, I could utilize my allies and adapt the plan as necessary.  Perhaps fake myself as being "recruited to the cult" during the previous night and using WIFOM and my teammates to convince people that the remaining "surveyed" person is the true cult leader.
2.  If I was the Cult Leader, I would know how my death affects the cult and I would adapt the plan as necessary.  None of those 3 conditions you mentioned really affects the plan anyway.  If I misunderstood the point of your list, let me know.

Equally so, it could be read as you trying to say "I'm not performing this gambit, so I obviously can't be a cultist."

I primarily mentioned this on a whim, just because I had thought of that "Surveyer" role in advance and wanted to explain how I came up with it.  I also figured that my "cult leader plan" might provoke comments and discussion, which I figured was a good thing.  I wasn't expecting that post alone to clear me.

FallacyOfUrist:

How does any random voting stage question benefit the town? It isn't as much about the answer, but about how the answer is said, and the stimulus, the science. RVS questions are all about getting people talking and hopefully causing a slip up.

That's true, but a carefully chosen RVS question can also provide information that could be applicable later.  For example, if a player was asked an RVS question about how he felt about townies lying and he responded that it was never a good idea, then it would be suspicious if this player acted counter to his own advice during one of the later days.
I questioned you because I thought the question that you asked was kind of suspicious, since it provides insight into how a player might use a power role, which is information that could benefit the cult leader and help him narrow down which players actually have one.

Megggas: why the 3 g's? And more importantly, what would you say would be the best RVS questions to ask(for town)?

1.  It's a long story.
2.  As I alluded to above, I think the best RVS questions are questions that can yield answers containing information that may be useful later in addition to a potential slip-up now.  For example, your question to hector13 about lynching active/inactive players did yield some useful information.  He said that he won't lynch players based on post count, so if for some reason he tries to do exactly that on one of the later ingame days, we could call him out on it.  I also expect that scum answers would be more..."adaptable", so that they can weasel themselves out of a tough spot later without blatantly contradicting earlier statements and actions.
Having said this, it is kind of tough to come up with good RVS questions.  I'm certainly no master at it.

TheDarkStar:

There's generally one initial cultist, but I've seen games that start with two.

Did those games have the same number of starting players as this game?  If so, how were those games balanced to accommodate two cultists?

Alright, I'm going to bed now.  I'll be back sometime tomorrow.

[Megggas]

Whoops, just one more thing:

Unvote.

TheDarkStar, you didn't answer one of my questions:

TheDarkStar:

SabreTooth Tiger: If you had a one-shot investigate, would you use it night 1?
FOU: If you had a one-shot daykill, who would you shoot right now?

Why are you asking these questions?  How are the answers useful to the town?  These questions sound like subtle role-fishing.

[flabort]

flabort: You get the hypothetical situation. There are two bandwagons forming on two players you're not sure about, and you have the deciding vote. Player A has been lurking for most of the game, but has made some insightful observations whenever they have posted. Player B has been one of the most active, but hasn't really pressed any of the points they've made during the game. How do you vote and why?

pre-PPE: are you a mind-reader? How did you know I was also going to give you a hypothetical situation to answer?
PPE:

Hector Hypothetical: Suddenly everyone votes you with no reason and chooses to shorten the day. You survive due to someone else's power. What do you do?

Request a replacement while giving my monitor the double-birds because everyone is obviously stupid enough to follow a bandwagon without evidence. /hypothetical butthurt

Failing that, I'd go back through the posts to see if someone was dropping any hints about having lynch-stopping powers, then probably vote for them knowing the cultists are doing the same thing and will likely recruit them during the Night.

Nope, not a mind-reader. Just dumb luck.

I vote the lurker - where did they get that insight? Is it because they're genuinely insightful... or is it because they have some extra knowledge? Player B on the other hand, well, activity is good; even if it goes no-where, and not pressing their points can be excused as newbie mistakes or forgetfulness. But I'd have to ask some pointed questions of both players before the end of the lynch as well; try to get more information from each of them in case either of them has anything that would make me change my mind.

I see... you think it likely that the cult will try to convert anyone likely to have useful abilities, correct? New question: Would the most useful abilities against the cult be the most useful abilities for the cult to have?

~~~

FoU What power do you feel is more useful against a cult: A 1-shot kill, or an (not 1-shot) inspect?

Assuming both those work during the night...

Assuming that if the cult leader goes down, all the minions go down...

If the 1-shot kill hits just another cultist, it's going to be replaced. Hitting the leader is a matter of luck and analysis.

An inspection for cult alignment(assuming alignment inspection) is more reusable, and just seems... more useful to me. Why? Because it lets you know who to lynch in the day. It's a power of information, information that can be spliced together... like so.

I would feel that the inspect is more useful, but a more experienced player might get more use out of a 1-shot kill.
~~~

How would a more experienced player get more use out of one ability while you'd get more use out of the other? What do you define as experience?

Megggas What about you? Do you think that you'll approach scum hunting any differently for a cult?

Yes.  I think it's crucial that we establish as much activity and content as possible during Day 1.  As people are recruited to the cult during upcoming days, we'll have a higher chance of identifying changes in behavior if there's more content to analyze during the earlier days.  We might arrive at an endgame similar to Cult Mafia 2, where the town had to lynch the cult leader specifically to avoid losing.  The more content we can establish early, the easier it will be for us to identify recruited cult members, townies, and by process of elimination, the cult leader.

Agreed, activity is paramount. What is the best way to establish activity and content, in your opinion?
Myself, I am of the opinion that when answering questions we should ask more questions so that another response is necessary, thereby creating an opportunity for more content to be created. Do you agree?

flabort:

flabort:  Do you think that there are any third party factions in this game?

It's possible; the only "known" is that there is a cult, the rest is unknowns. Do I expect there to be? No, but regardless I still wouldn't be surprised

So you recognize it's possible, but you are kind of leaning toward there not being a third party.  What factors make you believe that a third party is a little bit unlikely?

1) Player count. There are only 9 players; assuming one player is the cult leader, then there could be either 0 or 1 starting scum to accompany them. That leaves 7 or 8 Non-Cult at start; with third parties, it lessens the amount of town, which hastens the rate at which town would lose and the game would end.
2) The opening text; "unconfirmed third parties have told this reported that someone operating under the name of the Clone Lord is responsible." This line leaves the possibility for third parties, but how would they know who the Clone Lord is? It seems more likely from a flavor perspective to me that it's one of the Clone Lord's own or even the Clone Lord himself who told the reporter such an egotistical name.
3) Gut instinct. I know that's not much to go on, but I have a feeling that if there should be one, there should be more than one.
4) The Mod, Deus Asmoth, is clever. He'd be very careful when balancing the game to make it equally likely for any one team or person to win; third parties are notoriously hard to balance for a chance at their victory, and always throw a monkey wrench into game balance.

So while I can't say it's impossible for there to be a third party, I do feel that there probably isn't.

TDS If you had to choose someone to publicly reveal their alignment right now, who would it be?

megggas, since he's already had some suspicion on him.

What sort of suspicion? Pretend I'm blind to anything not addressed to me, and explain it like I'm five.

[Deus Asmoth]

The earth shines through the observation window as nine figures argue. As far as you can tell the life support systems are all still operational, but there's no way on or off the base unless someone feels like using the airlock. Without the monitoring systems active, the place feels as silent as a tomb during the brief moments when no one is shouting.

Votecount:
TheDarkStar (1): Megggas
Chromatic Wasp (1): TheDarkStar
tntey (1): FallacyofUrist

[Megggas]

Agreed, activity is paramount. What is the best way to establish activity and content, in your opinion?
Myself, I am of the opinion that when answering questions we should ask more questions so that another response is necessary, thereby creating an opportunity for more content to be created. Do you agree?

For the RVS stage, I agree that that is basically the best course of action.  Once something controversial happens, it may be better to use more selective questioning to increase pressure on suspect people.  We'd still need to keep an eye on people out of the spotlight though.

flabort:
Do you think that power roles recruited by the cult keep their abilities?  If so, what led you to that conclusion?

hector13:
You said that you were inclined to believe that this game started with 2 cultists because otherwise the town could win on Day 1 with a lucky lynch.  If there are 2 cultists, what countermeasures do you believe would be in place to keep the game balanced?
Personally, I think that if there are 2 cultists, then there would be something to stop the cult from instantly winning by Night 2 after 2 townie mislynches.  Maybe one of them would be some kind of half-cult role that would require recruitment to become a full fledged member.  Or perhaps instead, the cult just wouldn't be able to recruit anyone on Night 1.

FallacyOfUrist:
Do you think that RVS questions asked by the cult leader would be any different than RVS questions asked by normal townies?  Do you think the CL's questions would have an ulterior motive or primarily just be asked for the purpose of blending in?

[hector13]

Megas

I primarily mentioned this on a whim, just because I had thought of that "Surveyer" role in advance and wanted to explain how I came up with it.  I also figured that my "cult leader plan" might provoke comments and discussion, which I figured was a good thing.  I wasn't expecting that post alone to clear me.

What sort of points do you think the other players may have brought, in discussing your hypothetical gambit?

hector13:
You said that you were inclined to believe that this game started with 2 cultists because otherwise the town could win on Day 1 with a lucky lynch.  If there are 2 cultists, what countermeasures do you believe would be in place to keep the game balanced?
Personally, I think that if there are 2 cultists, then there would be something to stop the cult from instantly winning by Night 2 after 2 townie mislynches.  Maybe one of them would be some kind of half-cult role that would require recruitment to become a full fledged member.  Or perhaps instead, the cult just wouldn't be able to recruit anyone on Night 1.

Perhaps so. The whole shtick of the cult is to be able to recruit other players into their midst, so anything that hampers that (like role-blocking abilities) will be useful, to some extent. There may also be someone who can't be converted among us.

Investigative roles might be useful, but would have limited application seeing as how someone who turns up town after N1 may be cult after N2, so it's unlikely we have alignment things like that. Maybe trackers (or a variant) but that also has the issue of not necessarily knowing what the night-action performed on/by a player actually was, or perhaps who performed/was targeted by a particular action.

flabort

I vote the lurker - where did they get that insight? Is it because they're genuinely insightful... or is it because they have some extra knowledge? Player B on the other hand, well, activity is good; even if it goes no-where, and not pressing their points can be excused as newbie mistakes or forgetfulness. But I'd have to ask some pointed questions of both players before the end of the lynch as well; try to get more information from each of them in case either of them has anything that would make me change my mind.

What sort of things would you be looking for from each player in order to solidify your reads on them?

I see... you think it likely that the cult will try to convert anyone likely to have useful abilities, correct? New question: Would the most useful abilities against the cult be the most useful abilities for the cult to have?

This comes more from agreeing with Megas that it would be a pretty solid strategy for the cultist(s) to use, seeing as I had never really considered it... but yes.

The second part comes with a caveat, mainly whether or not converts retain their pre-recruitment abilities. If we have any killing abilities, they would help the cult so they can reach their win-con quicker than just through mislynches and converts.

Even if they don't, any ability the town had but can't use anymore will benefit the Cult.

Normally I wouldn't answer questions like this, but Megas had already pointed it out anyway so... yeah. Uncertain on whether or not my normal reticence to answer these things is a good thing though, seeing as it also reveals the scums' potential strategies to the rest of the town, and they may not have considered it - like Megas pointing out the stuff about power roles.