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Author Topic: Thoughts on Transhumanism  (Read 22615 times)

Graknorke

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #240 on: November 07, 2015, 07:48:08 am »

You can't sense anything, just nerve impulses created by physical reactions in some places. Therefore nothing is physical.
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #241 on: November 08, 2015, 09:24:15 am »

1) "Physical" (relating to physics) processes occur in "physical" (relating to physics) materials/substances/mediums. Whereas, computer software has a layer of logical/virtual obfuscation to it. For example, if you push on a ball, your hand comes into contact with the ball and applies force to it. There is a relationship between hand and ball that exists. Whereas if you have, for example, a video on a computer of a ball being pushed, no energy from the picture of the hand is being applied to the picture of the ball. The picture of the hand exists as a magnetic pattern on a hard drive platter and lights on a screen, the picture of the ball exists as a magnetic pattern and bunch of lights...and those two magnetic patterns and bunches of lights, don't interact with each other in any way even remotely close to the manner in which your hand and the ball interacted.

Is that a reasonable summary of your objection to the "brain/consciousness = hardware/software" metaphor?
It's not absolutely wrong, per se, but I think you're still missing my point by a slight margin, and I'm at a loss to communicate my intent more efficiently. I wouldn't say "relating to physics," but "existing in [physical??] reality." And not "obfuscation," but "representation." Such things as logic, software, and physics (the natural science) are symbolic representions of reality---they are models, not reality itself. It doesn't matter one whit whether you call the "substrate" of reality physical, material, electromagnetic, spiritual, or a simulation on God's supercomputer---this is an entirely different matter from the big and hairy question of whether the logical structure of your model really matches the logical structure of reality, and my position is that it does not, and cannot, because reality does not have a "logical structure" any more than a piece of toast has the face of Jesus. I'm not endorsing vacuous, anti-scientific skepticism here, because some models are clearly better than others, there's no question about that---it's just that some people who spend all their time staring at logical models (especially ones that they themselves have designed) tend to forget that there is a difference between the representation and the thing being represented, and someone has to occasionally remind them of that.

Let me clarify my position once more: I'm an ontological monist, but I'm painfully aware of the the fact that language, with its "universe of representations," creates a strong illusion of a plurality of substrates and, indeed, an illusion of the very distinction between essence and substance. This is just the premise, though, and I've already expressed my main argument against the software metaphor as clearly as I can. I suggest you carefully read and re-read my response to Bauglir, as well as my successive response to roy/wierd, before you proclaim you disagreement.

That's all I can say for now; I have a few deadlines coming up, and I won't have a chance to write another reply for at least a week.
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Bauglir

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #242 on: November 08, 2015, 03:07:56 pm »

That's all I can say for now; I have a few deadlines coming up, and I won't have a chance to write another reply for at least a week.
Hey, me too. I've been trying to keep up with this thread but the last few days have been way too busy, and I expect nothing different this week. But thanks for keeping up the debate!
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Bohandas

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #243 on: December 09, 2015, 08:30:55 pm »

The ancient Egyptian conceptualization of the soul might be a good metaphorical framework from which to consider the mind uploading issue. In the ancient Egyptian belief system the soul was considered to not be s iingle unitary entity, but to consist primarily of two seperable parts: the Ba which consisted of one's personality, and the Ka which was the life-force and was metaphysically bound to the body (there were also a number of other ancillary parts and all of the parts of the soul were bound to the heart). Uploading one's mind would be like preserving the Ba but not the Ka.
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Bohandas

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #244 on: December 09, 2015, 08:41:06 pm »

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/physical
"a :  having material existence"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/physical
"Of or relating to material things"


E=mc^2


http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/physical
" ​existing as or ​connected with things that can be ​seen or ​touched:"

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/physical
"Of or relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind"


Electromagnetic radiation



http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/physical
" ​existing as or ​connected with things that can be ​seen or ​touched:"

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/physical
"Of or relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind"


Neodymium magnets
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Bumber

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #245 on: December 10, 2015, 06:41:33 am »

-physical definitions stuff-
Please don't restart that. For everyone's sake. There's a reason this thread fell into a coma.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 06:54:15 am by Bumber »
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TempAcc

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #246 on: December 10, 2015, 07:08:54 am »

Kinda parachuting on the middle of the discussion now, but here's my take on things:
In more laymanish words, what I get from SirQ's argument (or may be saying) is that our current models, systems and representations of reality are unreliable and we should be careful when taking them as absolute truth because, ultimately, they're just that, representations. They were created based on info we extracted from the means we have to perceive reality, and within systems we have conceived to measure and understand it, so it doesn't conflict with what we perceive as logic.
The software/hardware metaphor takes into consideration a notion thats heavily based on these systems, and that may not be applicable at all to the relationship of our counciousness and our body, if they're even truly separate things. In fact, we don't even truly know what counciousness is, how it begins, where it ends, much less if it can be transported from medium to medium like a software.

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@Bohandas: Thats interesting. The egyptian soul model thing is reminiscent of hermetic ideas of the soul being composed of a non physical body, that is the manifestation of your counciousness, and that is inside (or rather, wears) a more physical, but not truly physical body, which is what interfaces your counciousness with your physical body and that is responsible for maintaining the processes crucial for the sustenance of life. This isn't surprising, as Hermes is supposed to have taught in egypt at a certain point. Its also very similar the spiritist concept of the perispirit.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #247 on: December 10, 2015, 11:30:46 am »

This is one long threadnought...
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Bauglir

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #248 on: December 12, 2015, 01:18:13 am »

-snip-
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

... no, i'm not apologizing, i promised i'd make this post and i finally found time to do it, so y'all can just take it
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

SirQuiamus

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #249 on: December 12, 2015, 02:56:58 pm »


Hey, thanks for replying! It's always nice to see diverging viewpoints converge on something close to agreement---or at least agreement on the premises, which is what matters most for rational discussion. However, there are a few points I'd like to revisit for the record, in order to clarify why I now think (at the risk of Dunning-Krugering myself to death) that all this philosophical blather is in fact non-trivial from a practical, scientific perspective.
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Bauglir

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #250 on: December 12, 2015, 03:14:47 pm »

Ah, well, sure. Emulation seems like the practical goal, while simulation seems possible in principle but insurmountably challenging with foreseeable technology. I have a different view on the likely direction of transhumanism, I suppose, as I think it'll have more to do with expanding minds into additional media as a way of augmenting them in the way information technology has always done since before the abacus. But, as I said, my view of what a mind is places it at a level more akin to a map than the terrain - that is, the thing the word refers to is an abstraction of physical processes, and it is the abstraction that matters for our subjective experiences, not the processes. But "what's important" is just an unsubstantiated belief that's unlikely to be testable within our lifetimes. I'll happily agree that there are large numbers of people who fall victim to the fallacies you're trying to point out, but I don't think it's necessary to do so in order to come to some vaguely similar conclusions about what people are.

In any case, the chain of causality is fine. The activity of a computer is still from hardware configurations to bits to instructions to higher level abstractions like objects and control flow to functionality (and arguably further up to monitoring and other stuff). Only its design follows that reversed flow you're talking about, and the difference for brains is that there simply was no design - and it's the activity that we presumably want to reproduce, anyway.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

i2amroy

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #251 on: December 12, 2015, 03:38:07 pm »

Confusing simulation and emulation is definitely a problem, I'll give you that. :P
To reiterate: I can see the potential utility of AI research, and I can see the potential utility of brain research, but as I've said, I cannot comprehend why anyone would want to cross-pollinate the two into the bizarre hybrid that has taken over large swathes of both disciplines in the name of superlative transhumanity.
That said this is actually a legitimate idea in a lot of the fields of computer science, the so called "meet in the middle" method, that rather than starting from a top-down or a bottom-up approach starts at both ends and simultaneously works towards the middle. This allows for the algorithms to gain the ability of a bottom-up simulationist learning-based method (where we keep perfecting the lower layers to see the emergent behavior), while allowing for the general guided perspective of an emulationist type of simulation from the top down. Of course this is not without it's drawbacks; until the two views actually both get far enough to meet in the middle you essentially have two different views with half as much work put into them as they could have had, but often in the long run this leads to a much faster meeting than it woudl without them.

You can see a similar approach in the field of machine learning. Taking a single top-down approach, where you program everything into a robot about how it moves, etc., can take years or even decades to do, and your algorithms will trip on the very first thing that you didn't program in. Taking solely a bottom-up approach leads to very fast results, in that you can have robots running around your lab within the space of hours or days, but to actually focus on them doing something and get them to learn the best method can take months or years of evolutionary algorithm runs. Taking a meet in the middle approach allows for the benefits of both by cutting that evolutionary time down substantially while still allowing for the flexibility of the bottom-up approach.
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Bauglir

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #252 on: March 10, 2016, 04:24:34 pm »

Oh! I suppose I hadn't thought of the necessity of distinguishing between a mind and consciousness. Yeah, I have no idea how the last one works. It's interesting that I hadn't bothered to speak of that, since I've been avoiding explanatory theories anyway (having no way of linking things like neuron firing to things like thoughts). I've been mostly trying to explain what I think the word "mind" means, and why I think that means you can do certain things with one. But that gives me about the same insight into consciousness as knowing what the word "software" means gives you into strong encryption.

Of course, the article is pretty arbitrary about what it calls phlegm theories - it kind of sounds like the definition is "anything that doesn't answer the particular questions I have", especially given that the theory he provides doesn't have any of the concrete mechanisms he so strongly insists are necessary. He relies on similar abstractions and appeals to intuition - introspection is no more concrete a mechanism than information amalgamation.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Bauglir

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #253 on: March 10, 2016, 05:17:30 pm »

I don't see it. At least, I don't see it being any more concrete. I mean, yeah, the "Lump enough information together, and spontaneous consciousness will arise" theory is silly, so much so that I'm skeptical this author really knows what he's talking about since he says that many respected researchers in the area believe it. Self reference begs the question by abstracting away the notion of what a "self" is to be referenced - the very same question that the theories he's criticizing explain away with mysticism ("there is no self, only collections of information") or misdirection ("the self arises from neuronal oscillations").

"Brains build models" is as solid a foundation as "brains process information" or "neurons sometimes oscillate". They all generate testable hypotheses, he just doesn't seem to like those ones. His argument sounds nice and workable, but lacks substance.

As for the discussion here - I wasn't part of all of it, but what I was part of wasn't even about how minds worked, it was about what minds were. Those are different questions - two people might have identical understandings of the physical processes of a brain's functionality, but disagree on whether two identical brains* have the same mind, for example. Some people might object that there'd be no magical transmission of experience, so obviously they're different minds because they aren't part of the same unit, while others would wonder what the first people are going on about, since they're clearly two instances of the same thing and so can both be called by that thing's name.

... or was I just having a different discussion than everyone else was?

*Imagining, just for a moment, that they also experience identical realities somehow.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Dorsidwarf

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #254 on: March 10, 2016, 06:25:09 pm »

I wouldn't get digitally uploaded, but I would try and mess with everyone who did.
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