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[falcc]

Now that values can shift in play and stories can be told, it would be nice for these components to be carried forward into the Justice Arc. There are a lot of crimes that groups should judge as places requiring moral reform rather than punishment. Basically one form of punishment entities can have is something that attempts to shift the values of the criminal away from the values that leads Dwarves to commit a particular crime. Priests could sermonize people, family members could chastise children, and repeated offenses could lead to things like shunning.

It just seems like a lot of groups would probably want to inflict in-group punishments that aren't imprisonment or beatings.

[NJW2000]

So like a culture having fables?

[GoblinCookie]

I agree, once we have crimes happening in our fortress we will need some way to change dwarves behavior or else we will just have infinite reoffending.

[callisto8413]

"...and Mr. Urist McRobber had one of his hands cut off for trying to steal from the sleeping Elves."

"Gee, Urist McGrandpa.  That's horrible."

"That's right Urist McGrandson.  And the point of the story?  Remember to always club the Elves to death in their sleep BEFORE trying to rob them."

Something like that?   

[JesterHell696]

The process should mostly be beyond direct player control, the player can set up the "counseling room" and choose the counselors but everything else like what the counselor actually teaches to the dwarf should be up to the dwarves after all can't have the player indoctrinating the entire fortress to their belief system easily otherwise the players will "danger room" their dwarves to be whatever they want them to be where as the should be "self" motivated individuals not player programmed robots.

How well this work should be dependent on the personality facets and values of both the teacher and the "student".

For instance it should be hard to teach someone the value of [HARMONY] if they have a low value in [FRIENDLINESS] because that causes conflict, likewise the effectiveness of the counselor should be dependent on their own value, after all somebody who isn't a [HARD_WORK]er wont be good at teaching others to be [HARD_WORK]ers also the [DISDAIN_ADVICE] and [CLOSEMINDED] values can work as base negative modifiers to the criminals ability to learn.

There's also the criminals willingness to actually learn, with the addition of crime we should also have it so the judge of intent of the counselor is checked against the lying of the criminals to see if they can fool the "parole board" in to thinking they've changed.

[GoblinCookie]

The process should mostly be beyond direct player control, the player can set up the "counseling room" and choose the counselors but everything else like what the counselor actually teaches to the dwarf should be up to the dwarves after all can't have the player indoctrinating the entire fortress to their belief system easily otherwise the players will "danger room" their dwarves to be whatever they want them to be where as the should be "self" motivated individuals not player programmed robots.

How well this work should be dependent on the personality facets and values of both the teacher and the "student".

For instance it should be hard to teach someone the value of [HARMONY] if they have a low value in [FRIENDLINESS] because that causes conflict, likewise the effectiveness of the counselor should be dependent on their own value, after all somebody who isn't a [HARD_WORK]er wont be good at teaching others to be [HARD_WORK]ers also the [DISDAIN_ADVICE] and [CLOSEMINDED] values can work as base negative modifiers to the criminals ability to learn.

There's also the criminals willingness to actually learn, with the addition of crime we should also have it so the judge of intent of the counselor is checked against the lying of the criminals to see if they can fool the "parole board" in to thinking they've changed.

The negative values that make a person resistant to being reformed should be crucial that is certain. 

We need an option to send our hardened re-offending irredeemable criminals off to the dwarf prison site, as in the Starting Scenario if one is available within a certain distance.  There is nothing really fun about having a hopelessly criminal dwarf that cannot be reformed and just keeps causing damage, getting imprisoned, causing more damage, getting imprisoned again etc. 

[callisto8413]

The negative values that make a person resistant to being reformed should be crucial that is certain. 

We need an option to send our hardened re-offending irredeemable criminals off to the dwarf prison site, as in the Starting Scenario if one is available within a certain distance.  There is nothing really fun about having a hopelessly criminal dwarf that cannot be reformed and just keeps causing damage, getting imprisoned, causing more damage, getting imprisoned again etc.

Maybe the 'Dirty Dozen' idea - recruit the hard core criminals into military units stationed outside the Fortress - either on the edge of the map or within the caverns.  There they can at least cause damage to enemies of the state. 

Or maybe send them to the mines...though being Dwarfs they may like it there....

[GoblinCookie]

Maybe the 'Dirty Dozen' idea - recruit the hard core criminals into military units stationed outside the Fortress - either on the edge of the map or within the caverns.  There they can at least cause damage to enemies of the state. 

Or maybe send them to the mines...though being Dwarfs they may like it there....

Giving criminals weapons is about as far from sense as you can go. 

[Evil One]

Maybe the 'Dirty Dozen' idea - recruit the hard core criminals into military units stationed outside the Fortress - either on the edge of the map or within the caverns.  There they can at least cause damage to enemies of the state. 

Or maybe send them to the mines...though being Dwarfs they may like it there....

Giving criminals weapons is about as far from sense as you can go.

Then it should definitely be done... for !!SCIENCE!!

[CaptainLambcake]

someones never heard of penal battalions

[Vattic]

someones never heard of penal battalions

If they are included they should come with the disadvantages.

[GoblinCookie]

someones never heard of penal battalions

People make penal battalions when they are desperate.

[Deboche]

The process should mostly be beyond direct player control, the player can set up the "counseling room" and choose the counselors but everything else like what the counselor actually teaches to the dwarf should be up to the dwarves after all can't have the player indoctrinating the entire fortress to their belief system easily otherwise the players will "danger room" their dwarves to be whatever they want them to be where as the should be "self" motivated individuals not player programmed robots.

What about cults ranging from the Manson family to the catholic church? I agree there should be deviation from the norm based on individual traits but don't underestimate the power of conditioning and - what all religions are essentially - propaganda.

Danger rooming is what gets done to us all to fit into the roles our society needs us to perform.

This suggestion could lead to other interesting developments like:
- the younger a sentient creature is taught a morality the more it sticks;
- an indoctrinating/conditioning/brain washing skill for clergy people;
- when contact happens between two cultures, the more developed one has more of an impact on the least developed one.

[JesterHell696]

What about cults ranging from the Manson family to the catholic church? I agree there should be deviation from the norm based on individual traits but don't underestimate the power of conditioning and - what all religions are essentially - propaganda.

I don't underestimate the power conditioning, I view all societal values as condition responses but conditioning like the Manson more strongly effects certain types of individuals and catholic indoctrination generally starts in childhood the later you start the process the harder it is to succeed unless the individual is susceptible to that kind of thing, this is why I said [DISDAIN_ADVICE] and [CLOSEMINDED] can be negative modifiers.

Although [DISDAIN_ADVICE] and [CLOSEMINDED] can also act as positive mod's when aligned correctly, my point is that the player should not be able to just select a dwarves and "reprogram" them to the player ideal, it should require careful consideration of the dwarf to be conditioned (are the strong-willed or independent?) and the one doing the conditioning (are they "Charismatic" enough?).

Danger rooming is what gets done to us all to fit into the roles our society needs us to perform.

What I was talking about wasn't danger rooming children but adults, children should start with very "neutral" values and be taught the values of their civ over their childhood but an adult with well defined beliefs should be harder and if their strong willed should be almost impossible without the right combination over personality facets and value in the one counseling them

- the younger a sentient creature is taught a morality the more it sticks;

Indoctrination definitely work better on children but do the parents "consent" to your indoctrination of them? and how should the game model the parent discontent if they oppose what you are trying to teach their children? or does the player just get free reign with the children?

- an indoctrinating/conditioning/brain washing skill for clergy people;

I don't think indoctrinating/conditioning/brain washing is purely a clergy skill and while I do think its possible for Toady to implement it as a separate skill (gelder/surgeon) I also think it possible to model it with the current social skills, mostly because I think all those skill are used in the indoctrination process in one way or another.

- when contact happens between two cultures, the more developed one has more of an impact on the least developed one.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "more developed", does more developed just mean a more extreme value? is it a specific progression path? or a type of "strength" check for the values?

Lets take the harmony value for example.

HARMONY    

+41 to +50    would have the world operate in complete harmony without the least bit of strife or disorder
+26 to +40    strongly believes that a peaceful and ordered society without dissent is best
+11 to +25    values a harmonious existence
−10 to +10    sees equal parts of harmony and discord as part of life
−25 to −11    doesn't respect a society that has settled into harmony without debate and strife
−40 to −26    can't fathom why anyone would want to live in an orderly and harmonious society
−50 to −41    believes deeply that chaos and disorder are the truest expressions of life and would disrupt harmony wherever it is found

I don't know how could be considered more developed the the other based off of this alone, I think somebody could posses an underdeveloped view that [have the world operate in complete harmony without the least bit of strife or disorder] just feeling that its "right" and their opponent could have an extremely well developed view that [sees equal parts of harmony and discord as part of life] based off of their observation of the world.

Until we know how the game will handle philosophical propagation of values we can't know what value has been more developed or if that even a thing that will be tracked (knowing Toady I think it probably will).

This does however raise the question of how strong a value can be, is it just a measure of the extremity of that value? I personally hope not. I suppose it would be possible to attach something akin to the deity based belief system to individual values resulting in something like [is a faithful believer in that harmony and discord are equal parts of life] vs [is a casual believer that the world should/does operate in complete harmony without the least bit of strife or disorder] then the more developed value could be tracked and be harder for the player to change.

[GoblinCookie]

What about cults ranging from the Manson family to the catholic church? I agree there should be deviation from the norm based on individual traits but don't underestimate the power of conditioning and - what all religions are essentially - propaganda.

Danger rooming is what gets done to us all to fit into the roles our society needs us to perform.

This suggestion could lead to other interesting developments like:
- the younger a sentient creature is taught a morality the more it sticks;
- an indoctrinating/conditioning/brain washing skill for clergy people;
- when contact happens between two cultures, the more developed one has more of an impact on the least developed one.

Cult/Religion indocrination does not work very well on those who do not already believe in the cult/religion.

Your ideas are pretty good, except that clergy should only work on those who are of the same religion as they are.