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[hector13]

WTF do you mean, "so what!?" You are all like "wait for day 2" with about 90 hours left in D1. I would hope you're going to be a bit more pro-active brah.

I don't see how that matters. I'm right here answering and posting am I not active?

You don't see how someone might be confused that, at that point, you voted for someone a few hours into the game and said "let's wait until D2"? That doesn't strike you as a little bit lazy, perhaps?

Just because you're posting things, doesn't mean you're generating content. I mean, you said you didn't believe ATH, insulted him and his play in a n00b game, he got upset, you call him a troll and then unvote, telling everyone to ignore ATH, after which you then try to point out how awesome you are by saying you called bullshit way at the start.

ATH didn't say anything new in the exchange, so how do you think you are helping town with that exchange?

Since you're not focusing on ATH anymore, who do you go after next?

ATH, still waiting on those hints you were dropping about being the cop.

[NJW2000]

I'll help him out here: the stuff he said about trying to find out who the rolecop was? Maybe I;m wrong.

Everyone: there are six pages of what is basically one slightly aborted move. This benefits scum, yes? QUESTION.

[hector13]

"Slightly aborted move" is something of an understatement.

We have six pages of content to go over, involving a few players. The salient thing for the scum is someone claimed cop, assuming ATH isn't scum anyway... we can figure out where everyone stands on it, either as a first step toward questioning others, or we can begin questioning other people without considering ATH's claim.

Are you trying to get the town to ignore ATH's claim by saying it mostly benefits scum, though?

[NJW2000]

Not really, just to focus on other things as well, including the less involved players. Was that a sly FoS?

[hector13]

You are one of the less involved players you mentioned, so we need to get you to talk a bit more.

What other things would you like the rest of us to focus on?

[NJW2000]

Bootstrap paradox: the fact that I'm one of the less invovled players

But anyway, RE: the people that claim to have just been skimming the thread, do mafia often claim not to have read carefully, ICs or any others?

[hector13]

I think it's something that people do to let the rest of the players know they've looked through things, but not in detail. Town could do it to let the rest know they aren't ready to act on anything yet, scum could do it to basically look active without actually doing anything so... kind of a null thing in my book, at least in isolation.

I would hope the ICs are a bit more active today though.

Also not sure on the etiquette of calling people out for saying they're busy doing other things

Anyhow, lack of answering my question, kinda. What kind of things do you want the rest of us to focus on? Also ever so slightly defensive, asking if I was FoSing you when you had just said we needed to focus on players that were not ATH... why is this?

[NJW2000]

A) Don't mean to push anyone, I understand some poor fools have lives and stuff , but I just wondered.

B) What people have said not relating to the whole kerfaffle, at least a bit. What is there? Is there anything?

C) I wanted to know more about the impact this might have on the broader game in terms of attention. I wanted to know your thoughts on lines of reasoning such as this.

[hector13]

Also not sure on the etiquette of calling people out for saying they're busy doing other things

This is a genuine question for the ICs, byraway. Is it fair to challenge someone on saying they're busy? Is it a scum/town/null-tell? Does when the excuse happen change what kind of tell it is? (eg an hour before the end of the day as opposed to an hour in to a day)

B) What people have said not relating to the whole kerfaffle, at least a bit. What is there? Is there anything?

The thing about Mafia is that you need to be a bit pro-active in getting people to say things. Asking questions is good because it encourages people to say things, and then you can ask questions about those things and so on, until you run out of questions or are convinced enough to vote for someone.

It seems to me with these questions you're expecting other people to do the work and report their results, rather than doing it yourself... which could mean you're new and aren't sure what to look for, or could mean you're trying to get people to look away from ATH as scum

Anyway, to answer your questions here, not much so far, but most people outside the kerfaffle have only posted a few times.

C) I wanted to know more about the impact this might have on the broader game in terms of attention. I wanted to know your thoughts on lines of reasoning such as this.

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Would you mind clarifying for me?

[NJW2000]

2)Not much sums up what I found; I worry that there's nothing going on but that, and if ATH is just a new player who tried a gambit that didn't work well, Tomasque just meant his contribution as a joke and roo got dragged in by being confrontational and scumhunting honestly, then there could be no mafia involved. And town chasing town, with mafia being able to be "active" and "contribute" to something like that, which they understand almost completely and must find hilarious, they would be in an excellent position, under almost no pressure and being the least suspiscious people, while still being able to get a reasonable postcount. Come to think of it, most people not ATH could have been doing this.

3)I would like to know how people think the massive roleclaim business will affect the game in terms of where people's attention will go: will it divert people , give scum some breathing space, lead to more information by concentrating people on a particular area, etc?

BUT: all in all, ATH is at the top of my "people to watch" list, just not at the top of my "people I musn't forget to keep an eye on" one.

So, people, is it too early, or is this game just going to be me and Tomasque talking to, scumhunting and eventually inevitably tunneling one another

[hector13]

2)Not much sums up what I found; I worry that there's nothing going on but that, and if ATH is just a new player who tried a gambit that didn't work well, Tomasque just meant his contribution as a joke and roo got dragged in by being confrontational and scumhunting honestly, then there could be no mafia involved. And town chasing town, with mafia being able to be "active" and "contribute" to something like that, which they understand almost completely and must find hilarious, they would be in an excellent position, under almost no pressure and being the least suspiscious people, while still being able to get a reasonable postcount. Come to think of it, most people not ATH could have been doing this.

So, people, is it too early, or is this game just going to be me and Tomasque talking to, scumhunting and eventually inevitably tunneling one another

You need to ask questions of other people then, get them in the game. Especially the ones who haven't been active - the ICs (4mask and TheDarkStar) Tolyk and arguably Roo. I'm not sure what Roo was doing with ATH was scum-hunting, but it does more or less follow his meta from the two games I played with them. Tended to be quite abrasive.

You should continue scumhunting Tomasque if you're not entirely sure on their alignment. there's still 48 hours to go in D1, and we do have extensions if we need them, so having a stronger read on Tomasque is probably a good thing. You just can't forget about everyone else...

Unless you're getting confused again, and mean me: hector but the advice stays the same. You won't know my agenda if you don't ask me about it!

3)I would like to know how people think the massive roleclaim business will affect the game in terms of where people's attention will go: will it divert people , give scum some breathing space, lead to more information by concentrating people on a particular area, etc?

BUT: all in all, ATH is at the top of my "people to watch" list, just not at the top of my "people I musn't forget to keep an eye on" one.

I'm not sure how the roleclaim will affect things, other than ATH not surviving beyond D2. It has been said before, he'll either get NK'd N1 because the mafia don't want to risk it being true, or we'll lynch him D2 because the mafia didn't NK him.

At this point I think that we're not likely to get much more out of questioning ATH about it, so hopefully we get other people asking/asked questions too.

Did you have a "1)" in that post? It seems to be missing.

Do you have questions for the others, even if they are more RQS-type things?

[Jack A T]

Hey, I'm the Scum IC, their private advisor.  You can trust what I say, but I won't say much here.  I might pop up occasionally to answer general information questions when the playing ICs are away, like in this case, but generally I'll keep to scumchat.

Also not sure on the etiquette of calling people out for saying they're busy doing other things

This is a genuine question for the ICs, byraway. Is it fair to challenge someone on saying they're busy? Is it a scum/town/null-tell? Does when the excuse happen change what kind of tell it is? (eg an hour before the end of the day as opposed to an hour in to a day)

hector13: It is bad etiquette to insinuate that people's statements about their real life situations are false.  It is important to push non-contributors to contribute, but if someone says they're busy in real life, they're busy in real life.  Pressure them to act in-game, still.

Being busy outside the game is a nulltell.  General inactivity, though, can often be a scumtell, and contributing very little is often a scumtell (scum are generally reactive, plus they generally dislike attention and giving material to attack them with).  Keep in mind, though, that all tells are highly situational, with factors such as the player dropping the tell and the state of the game having to be taken into account.

Sustained minimal activity is generally troubling.  Single "I'm really busy, will do stuff later"-type statements, on the other hand, are expected (we all have lives), and can pop up at any time in a day.  Late ones are a bit irritating, particularly if they don't come with extension requests, but they happen.

Sustained complete inactivity (not even posting at all) can be dealt with through prods:

• Prods may be requested for a player. If they have not posted in the thread within 24 hours, excluding weekends, they will be prodded.
• If you stop playing altogether without notifying me, you will receive a warning after 48 hours, and a forced replace after 72 hours.

Anyway, it's a bit early to be worried about lurkers and inactive players.  We haven't even spent a full real-time day playing.

[TolyK]

I'm getting the feeling the majority of players here are north american, given you start a posting frenzy right as I'm about to go to sleep... *sigh*

I'll try to be fairly concise. First things first.

ATH: I did get nervous and try to call for defense on my first game, in which I was town. If you're going on false information here, read through rather than relying on an eidetic memory please. It will make you look scummy if you confuse other quotes. And the defence wasn;t a scumtell, I just said something dumb. Nobody here knows my scumtells, as I've never been scum.

Scumtells, though not universal, still have correlation, esp. lying ("gambitz" here is a bad idea, and only 4mask could really pull it through anyways... ), and WIFOM-to-cause-confusion. Speaking of which...

Everyone, re ATH's weird dodgy claiming: if we do the "die or be lynched next" thing, the mafia could well not kill him for innocent lynching. Which I'm sure most people already know. If he's mafia, he'll want to exploit this.

This is basically it. If he's not mafia, then they'll do this, but they might not do it so that he's... you know what I'm saying? You can't formulate plans on assumptions of behavior. Tentatively, I'll vote NJW and ask: What was the point of this segment? If "most people already know" + it's circular logic...

EVERYONE: QUESTION/SUGGESTION: (RHetorically) What has been the effect of TBH's... hard-to-pin-down play, the slight argument between them and roo, and the copclaim? While these are some of the more active posters, most of the disussion has been on this, with a some players only having really posted once or twice. Most points, if you flick htrough the thread, are about that stuff. And does that give us a full enough picture? No, most of the other stuff has been players discussing others' reads on this frankly mindbending mess, while there's been a bit of polite chatter, not much else. This benefits SCUM. SO how about we cool down on posts on this, think for a bit about the issue while not posting on it, and look at other players?

I'll disagree that this benefits scum, in that it's all conversation based on something that happened rather than on random.org (it took us out of the RVS). While the move itself was stupid, it's bad not to take as much milage out of it as possible. Also, it seems like you're actively trying to kill discussion about it, which could be a sign that you're uncomfortable with the topic or what it could pose. (Potentially: he's your scumbuddy who accidentally outed himself, and you want to clean it up ASAP).
How exactly does more discussion benefit scum?
P.S. Pressure vote likely to stay even as you answer previous question, due to this tidbit.
P.P.S. Mess isn't mindbending, there are only four possibilities (silly scum (cop), silly town cop or even sillier vanilla town). However, without more information (from flips) this is useless as a lynch point but still great as a conversation starter.

Will be online for a few hours, any questions, lad and gells?
Except a lot of you are probably older than me.
This is getting weird.

See: Discussion and banter thread, several (5-10?) pages back.

I'm not sure how the roleclaim will affect things, other than ATH not surviving beyond D2. It has been said before, he'll either get NK'd N1 because the mafia don't want to risk it being true, or we'll lynch him D2 because the mafia didn't NK him.

At this point I think that we're not likely to get much more out of questioning ATH about it, so hopefully we get other people asking/asked questions too.

Hold on there. Why would we lynch him D2 as a set thing? Not necessarily disagreeing, just want to see your logic.
Agree with second point.

[NJW2000]

Ok.

TolyK then:

So I'm getting voted on because of circular logic and thinking out loud? Better than my last mafia game, at least


Yeah, as I've said, I'm not trying to KILL discussion of it, but for reasons earlier stated, it's a lovely situation for scum as well if there isn't some other discussion of other stuff and none of them are involved. Like this, which is good. I was just worried that a mistaken gambit might suck the whole town into something not giving much info.

I've found the mess confusing myself, but I guess that's personal.

Answering for Hector: If the mafia don't kill him, for "being" the rolecop, this means he is mafia, so we have to kill him. It doesn't fully work, if he is neither. I think.

RE: Hector: no 1), the previous 1)  was cleared up for me.

[hector13]

Well, I should say that lynching ATH isn't the only option we have if he isn't killed N1, but anyway: I would lynch ATH D2 because either:

a) he's fakeclaiming cop, and I don't see why a townie would do that.

or b) he's telling the truth, but we won't know for sure until after his flip, which requires death. If the scum don't NK him N1, they may very well do it N2 anyway, because the odds of him investigating scum increase from 2 in 7 on N1 to 1 in 2 on N2, assuming we don't lynch scum (in which case the odds drop to 1 in 4, assuming his N1 investigation is alive/1 in 5 if not) and the person investigated on N1 is still alive (otherwise it would be 2 in 5 if we missed scum/1 in 5 if not)

We wouldn't have to lynch him, necessarily, if he said who he investigated N1, in case the scum do NK him N2. That way we can focus our attention on actually finding scum rather than lynching our Cop. However, surviving to D3 would necessitate a lynch I think, because I don't think the scum would leave the cop alive for 2 nights straight. (pending flips from the D1 + 2 lynch, and the N1 + 2 NKs, obviously. Cop may flip long before then.)

PPE: NJW, and Tolyk really, there might not actually be a cop in this setup, which is another issue for us to consider. At this point I think he was fakeclaiming, but this being a BM, I'm not sure if it was a n00b town move, and I'd rather not risk losing the cop D1 if he is telling the truth. It's not a pleasant situation to be in

Think I'll stick an FoS on NJW for the moment though. You're not asking many questions, which I find bothersome.