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Yes.

No.

I'm not a player but I want to see the results.

[Haspen]

Poll has been made so the silent playerbase can have a voice as well.

[Swordstar]

Can we not have random people voting on it? Aka if you're not playing, don't vote?

[Haspen]

After a brief talk with BMM42 I've decided to tell the hidden condition that Salvar's troop will retreat if Salvar or half his mooks get killed.

I still dislike telling people how/what/when because that smells of walkthrough rather than playthrough, but there you have it.

[CrimsonEon]

That's... kind of a case of ViolationOfCommonSense there.

I mean, that would have been the logical equivalent of throwing some of your units to the meatgrinder in hopes that their chunks would jam the mechanism. No way we would have thought to do that before the Pahravinites showed up, especially when our listed objective was either to kill all enemies or escape.

EDIT: I am voting for the do-over. If we're going to fail for what would normally be completely unforeseeable, non RNG reasons, we deserve to at least put our best foot forward.

[Blade Master Model 42]

Well, we know now, and that's the important thing.

For the record, i am at this point voting for the mulligan.

[Haspen]

I tried to rewind with the time machine but I think I broke something and this is the best result .<'

[Blade Master Model 42]

Currently running numbers for the entire group of PCs (except Vera) vs Salvar and his men. The two prevailing schools of thought right now are A: Kill Salvar, don't even bother with his doods, and B: Kill Salvar's doods, and leave him be. Gonna get us a basic array of numbers for easier strategifying. Not doing for the new players either, since they're well away from the rest of us.

Spoiler: Finally done (click to show/hide)

Lizbet: (Daunt accounted for in all values, piercing PS accounted for)
Vs. Assassin (Myrmidon)
Slim Lance/Iron Jav
DAM: 11/12- 3 hits to kill
Hit: Auto/83
Crit: 9/-

counter

DAM: 16 - 2 hits to kill
Hit: 49/59
Crit: 18

Vs. Slayer (Archer)
Slim Lance/Iron Jav
DAM: 4/5 -7 to kill, 60to kill
Hit: 99/79
Crit: 8/-

counter

DAM: 19/!41 -2 hits to kill dismounted, 1 hit kill mounted
Hit: 60 (holding lance)/ 70 (holding jav)
Crit: 26

Vs Salvar (Proffessional Bellend)
Slim Lance/Iron Jav
DAM: 8/9 - 5 to kill, 4 to kill
Hit: 93/73
Crit: 11/1

counter
DAM: Kills mounted or not
Hit: 75 (lance)/ 85(jav)
Crit: 39

Vs Salvar with Resolve (King of the knobs)

DAM: unchanged
Hit: 81/61
Crit: 11/1

counter (x2)
DAM: Unchanged
Hit: 93 (lance)/auto (jav)
Crit: 43

Chalco (+STR PS accounted for, +DEF one not so much)
Vs Assassin
Slim Lance/Iron Lance
DAM: 14/16 - 2 hits to kill
Hit: 81/76
Crit: 8/-

counter (x2)
Dam: 7 -5 hits to kill
Hit: 86
Crit: 26

Vs Slayer
DAM: 7/9 - 4/3 to kill
Hit: 78/73
Crit: 7/-

counter (x2)

DAM: 11/!30 - 3 to kill/kills when mounted
Hit: 97
Crit: 34

Vs Salvar
DAM: 11/13
Hit: 72/67
Crit: 10/-

Counter (x2)
DAM: 14/! 22 -2/3 hits to kill
Hit: Auto
Crit: 47

Vs Resolve Salvar
DAM: Unchanged
Hit: 60/55
Crit: same

Counter (x2, but moreso)
DAM: Unchanged
Hit: Doesn't need to change
Crit: 51

Skipping Vera

Alice (no skills accounted for as they're all really iffy)
Worm/Rapier
Vs assassin
DAM: 5/13 - Kills in 6/3
Hit: 83/88
Crit: 6/10

Counter
Dam:  16- kills in 2
Hit: 73
Crit: 16

Vs Slayer
DAM: -/12
Hit: 94/99
Crit: 5/9

Vs Salvar
DAM: Nope/11 -kills in 4
Hit: Irrelevant/93
Crit: Irrelevant/12

Counter
DAM: 21/22 -2 to kill
Hit: 69/84
Crit: 37

Vs Resolve Salvar
DAM: Unchanged
Hit: 81
Crit: 12

Counter (x2)
DAM: Unchanged
Hit: 87/Auto
Crit: 41

Niccola (Pierce based PS accounted for)
Slim Lance/Iron Lance
Vs Assassin
DAM: 14/16-2 to kill
Hit: 84/79
Crit: 9/-

Counter
DAM: 10 - 3 to kill
Hit: 70
Crit: 26

Vs Slayer
Dam:7/9 (x2) 4/3 to kill
Hit: 80/75
Crit: 8/-

Counter
DAM: 14 - 2 to kill
Hit: 81
Crit: 34

Vs Salvar
DAM: 11/13 - 43 to kill
Hit: 74/69
Crit: 11/1

Counter
DAM: 21- 2 to kill
Hit: 96
Crit: 47

Vs Resolve Salvar
DAM: Unchanged
Hit: 62/57
Crit: Unchanged

Counter (x2)
DAM: Unchanged
Hit: Auto
Crit: 51

Lian (Vantage won't trigger against these guys unless we grab 2 levels)
Slim Lance/Iron Lance
Vs Assassin
DAM: 14/16 - 2 to kill
Hit: 80/75
Crit: 8/-

Counter (x2)
DAM: 10 - 3 to kill
Hit: 80
Crit: 26

Vs Slayer
DAM: 7/9 4/3 to kill
Hit: 76/71
Crit: 7/-

Counter
DAM: 14 - 2 to kill
Hit: 76 (PS accounted for)
Crit: 34

Vs Salvar
DAM: 11/13 - 4/3 to kill
Hit: 70/65
Crit: 10/-

Counter
DAM: 19- 2 to kill
Hit: Auto/91 at range 2
Crit: 47

Vs Resolve Salvar
DAM: Unchanged
Hit: 58/53
Crit: Unchanged

Counter (x2)
Dam: Unchanged
Hit: Auto
Crit: 51

Sen (no skills accounted for)
Training Bow/Iron Bow
Vs Assassin
DAM: 9/12 - 4/3 hits to kill
Hit: 80/75
Crit: 5/-

Counter
DAM: 9 - 3 to kill
Hit: 84
Crit: 25

Vs Slayer (x2)
DAM: 3/6 - 9/5 to kill
Hit: 91/86
Crit: 4/-

Counter
DAM: 12- 2 to kill
Hit: 80
Crit: 33

Vs Salvar
DAM: 7/10 - 5/4 to kill
Hit: 85/80
Crit: 7/-

Counter
DAM: 23- one hit kill
Hit: 95
Crit: 46

Vs Resolve Salvar
DAM: Unchanged
Hit: 73/68
Crit: Unchanged

Counter (x2)
DAM: Unchanged
Hit: Auto
Crit: Irrelevant

Iolani (Always has a minimum 10% chance to stop 1 potential counter attack)
Wind/Thunder
Vs Assassin
DAM: 8/10 - 4/3 to kill
Hit: 92/77
Crit: -/3

Counter (x2)
DAM: 18 - 2 to kill
Hit: 91
Crit: 22

Vs Slayer
DAM: 7/9 - 4/3 to kill
Hit: Auto/88
Crit: -/2

Counter
DAM: 21
Hit: 87
Crit: 30

Vs Salvar
Ineffective

Counter
DAM: 17
Hit: Auto
Crit: 43

Vs Resolve Salvar
Even worse than before

Titus (melee range +15 will only be accounted for the iron axe)
Iron Axe/Hatchet
Vs Assassin
DAM: 14/10 - 2/3 to kill
Hit: 51/41
Crit: -/2

Counter (x2)
DAM: 11 - 3 to kill
Hit: Auto
Crit: 25

Vs Slayer
DAM: 9/5 - 3/6 to kill
Hit: 77/67
Crit: -/1

Counter
DAM: 13 - 3 to kill
Hit: 92
Crit: 33

Vs Salvar
DAM: 13/9 - 3/4 to kill
Hit: 71/61
Crit: -/4

Counter (x2)
DAM: 23 - 2 to kill
Hit: Auto
Crit: 46

Vs Resolve Salvar
DAM: Unchanged
Hit: 59/49
Crit: -/4

Counter (x2)
DAM: 23 - 2 to kill
Hit: Auto
Crit: 50

Cyrus (worth noting that he has wrath)
Vs Assassin
DAM: 15 -2 to kill
Hit: 28
Crit: -

Counter (x2)
DAM: 13 - 3 to kill
Hit: Auto
Crit: 26

Vs Slayer
DAM: 10 - 3 to kill
Hit: 54
Crit: -

Counter
DAM: 15
Hit: 93
Crit: 34

Vs Salvar
DAM:14
Hit: 48
Crit: -

Counter (x2)
DAM: 24 - 2 to kill
Hit: Auto
Crit: 47

Vs Resolve Salvar
DAM: Unchanged
Hit: 36
Crit: -

Counter (x2)
Even worse

Galen:
Vs Assassin
DAM: 14 - 2 to kill
Hit: 64
Crit: -

Counter (x2)
DAM: 13 - 2 to kill
Hit: 99
Crit: 22

Vs Slayer
DAM: 13
Hit: 75
Crit: -

Counter (x2)
DAM: 16
Hit: 95
Crit: 30

Vs Salvar
DAM: 5
Hit: 84
Crit: -

Counter (x2)
DAM: 14
Hit: 95
Crit: 43

Vs Resolve Salvar
Dam: 5
Hit: 72
Crit: -

Counter (x2)
Dam: 14
Hit: Auto
Crit: 47

Santoku
Not Resolve State/Resolve State
Vs Assassin
DAM: 16 2 to kill
Hit: 40/70
Crit: 8/10

Counter (x2 without resolve)
DAM: 18 - 2 to kill
Hit: Auto/76
Crit: 28

Vs Slayer
DAM: 10
Hit: 51/81
Crit: 7/9

Counter
DAM: 21 - 2 to kill
Hit: Auto/72
Crit: 36

Vs Salvar
DAM: 14 - 3 to kill
Hit: 45/75
Crit: 10/12

Counter (x2 without Resolve)
DAM: 22 - 2 to kill
Hit: Auto/87
Crit: 49

Vs Resolve Salvar
DAM: 14 - 3 to kill
Hit: 33/63
Crit: 10/12

Counter (x2)
DAM: 22 - 2 to kill
Hit: Auto
Crit: 53

Spoiler: TLDR Threat Levels (click to show/hide)

attacking/defending
Lizbet:
Assassin: Mid/Mid
Slayer: Low/High
Salvar: Mid/Very High
Resolve Salvar: Low/Lethal

Chalco:
Assassin: Mid/Low-Mid
Slayer: Mid-High/High
Salvar: Mid/High
Resolve Salvar: Mid/Very High

Alice:
Assassin: Mid-High/High
Slayer: Mid: Mid
Salvar: Mid: High
Resolve Salvar: Low-Mid: Lethal

Niccola:
Assassin: Mid/Low
Slayer: High/Mid
Salvar: Mid-High/Very High
Resolve Salvar: Low/Lethal

Lian:
Assassin: Mid/High
Slayer: Low/Mid-High
Salvar: Low/Very High
Resolve Salvar: Low/Lethal

Sen:
Assassin: Low-Mid/Mid-High
Slayer: Low/High
Salvar: Low/Very High
Resolve Salvar: Low/Lethal

Iolani:
Assassin: Mid/Very High
Slayer: Mid-High/High
Salvar: No Threat/Very High
Resolve Salvar: No Threat/Lethal

Titus:
Assassin: Low/Very High
Slayer: Mid/High
Salvar: Mid/Lethal
Resolve Salvar: Low/Lethal

Cyrus:
Assassin: Low/Very High
Slayer: Low-Mid/Mid-High
Salvar: Low-Mid/Lethal
Resolve Salvar: Low/Lethal

Galen:
Assassin: Mid-High/Very High
Slayer: Mid/Very High
Salvar: Low/Very High
Resolve Salvar: Low/Lethal

Santoku:
Assassin: Low/Lethal
Slayer: Low/Lethal
Salvar: Low/Lethal
Resolve Salvar: Low/Lethal

Santoku with Resolve this time
Assassin: Mid/Very High
Slayer: Mid/Very High
Salvar: Mid/Lethal
Resolve Salvar: Mid/Lethal

[Blade Master Model 42]

Okay so lets get a discussion going. Before we can start planning we need to determine what our primary goal is going to be.

Do we rush Salvar down, kill him, and force his minions to retreat that way?

Or do we downsize his staff instead, and force him to go to a meeting with his human resources department?

Neither one of these options is going to be a simple task. Salvar's dudes are tough, and we aren't going to be able to halve them in a single turn.

Salvar himself is STUPID tough, but is not an insurmountable challenge based on my findings above. Especially considering that our Charisma totem isn't really factored into those numbers, and 10% can make a serious difference.

I would like people to make their positions clear, and if you have a reason beyond your gut instinct, please share it.

I for one feel like dealing with the mook squad is the best call.

[GiglameshDespair]

Neither of the options seem like they're going ot be pleasant.
I'd say that if we can take out Salvar, then we should, because otherwise combined with his goon squad we'll probably get rekt.

But I don't really know.

[Twinwolf]

I haven't looked at the numbers yet, but a gut feeling is that we should go for boss-dude, but only if we can down him in one turn. If we do that we'll have at least a turn, maybe two to get up the people he downed before the other guys get to us.

If we can't deal with him in a turn, go for the mooks.

[Swordstar]

... do you mean get the guys he downed up to full health or just up period? Cause anyone he downs on pp that we don't heal then die.

[Twinwolf]

Up to reasonable or full health I mean. Obviously get up everyone he downed on the same turn. If that's not really possible then we'd probably just have to go for the mooks.

[Blade Master Model 42]

... do you mean get the guys he downed up to full health or just up period? Cause anyone he downs on pp that we don't heal then die.

This is my main concern in going for Salvar. Anyone he engages is likely to go down, and some people are definitely going down. That's not too much of a problem if we get our hits off, but that's a big if. And getting him in a position where we can attack from multiple angles is also going to be tricky. The odds of anyone soloing him are just too long to be trying for him with just one or two spaces to attack him from.

Whereas with the mooks, while we have a much longer minimum period of engagement with the enemy, we don't need nearly as many stars to align. So that's the idea behind my position.

[Swordstar]

My problem there is that since they pretty heavily outnumber us, we can't engage them all at once and Salvar can just cherry pick us while they crit us and mebbe us all bleeding again. This wouldn't be as much of a problem if it was just them since we could apply hit and run tactics. But since hasp didn't actually follow his plan if having everything happen exactly as it did first time around, we've got angry pahs coming at us from behind and they have lots of mov which means they'll close that distance fast

[SOLDIER First]

This feels like it might be a repeat of what happened when I played Chapter 20 of Awakening on hard/classic.
I.E. "do the same thing every time until you stop messing up and finally beat it".