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[AceSV]

I'm thinking alchemy shops could be an unrealistic hand-wave to allow players to use some cool metals that weren't historically available. 

Basically, metals that require chemical or electrical processing could be refined at an Alchemy Shop instead of a smelter.  Potential alchemic metals include Titanium, Tungsten, Osmium, Chromium, Cobalt, Aluminum from bauxite, and probably Nickel, which I don't think you can actually smelt with heat alone.

I've actually modded in Tungsten and Osmium in the past, and I found them to be entirely game-breaking.  If they are included, they need to be very rare or difficult to obtain, like Adamantine is. 

There could also be a few fantasy metals.  I've played around with elemental themed metals, pyrochalcum, aerochalcum, hydrochalcum, geochalcum. 

[LMeire]

I like it, creating advanced pure-metals seems like a fairly dwarfy use of something like alchemy so it'd "realistic" if that were the goal/purpose of dwarven alchemists.

Though just as an aside, metals like tungsten are only overpowered because the game doesn't model wear-and-tear for armaments. If it did, I could see a tungsten sword shattering just from the physical stress of being made.

[Starver]

How about such alchemy¹ coming only from half-crazed dwarves.  Not as a planned (or even plannable) industry but possibly arising from a confluence of circumstances very similar to a failed-mood.  Somehow, the babbling dwarf survives with arcane knowledge of mysteries beyond the ken of soapmakers and mechanism-fabricators, and with care can form the basis of a few discoveries (perhaps a procedurally chosen handful of a number of carefully-tuned non-game-breaking 'mysteries') that the Alchemist can either produce him/herself or (in an analogue to the Manager noble) guide/lead/provoke others to slowly replicate according to the 'need' of the fortress.

I've long had the belief that cinnabar should somehow be forced to release its mercury, brimstone its sulphur and of course pitchblende its own particular exotic sub-components (with a great amount of tedious work to reflect realistic yields, and of course risks to the operator and even entire fortress that could now be replicated by syndromes and other tag-trickery) in an official capacity and not just through modding (to a greater or lesser degree of 'realism').  Perhaps the key to this is that an obsessive manufacturer, working at the very limits of sanity, finds that a whole lot of certain kind of rock, when 'accidentally' pulverised beyond all recognition, produces a very small amount of... something...

It even could be tied to the "glowing metal"/"rusted metal"/"blistered metal"/etc current 'exotic' materials.  Or, instead, they can be tied to actual (or pseudo-theoretical) chemistry.  Sprinkle the likes of cavorite and neutronium² into the mix, if you wish, amongst other more 'real' possibilities as superconducting compounds and exotic allotropes of carbon.  With balanced deficiencies (e.g. the wear already mentioned) as well as difficulties (the time and effort required to isolate the raw materials and create the actual end-product).  And perhaps some pre-requisites.  Imagine needing an actual diamond anvil (in a nod to Real World physics, albeit there it's more figurative than literal) to subject ore samples to high pressures, and the diamond anvil itself is an awfully difficult thing to scrape together (perhaps the creation of a prior alchemical half-mad genius?), if it even exists in this iteration of the game-universe...


The more I think about it, the more I feel that a game-world should have a low (but present) chance of getting perhaps getting one of: a super-strong material, a heat-absorbing material, an impact-dispersing material, etc, etc... but which one (or, with enough choices, which ones) you get is set down in the very fabric, and it's still a low low chance of ever encountering it.  Meanwhile, you always get to extract a 'regular exotic' like (say) tungsten (but still needs the inspired discovery, and other effort) and more tweaks are also made to the isolation and usage of existing elements/alloys.  If that isn't straying outside the stated 'time-frame of technology' that DF is meant to parallel from here on roundworld.


¹ i.e. what is mere technology for us, but alchemy for dwarves, as a counterpart to the various other aspects of 'mundane' dwarf physics that would be utterly magical in our own world.

² And now I'm wondering what properties a cavorite/neutronium alloy or other form of composite would have.  A great inertial mass but very little weight, perhaps?  Perhaps it's akin to slade?

[Alfrodo]

While I like this idea, with a lab required to make metal yield from its ore instead of a smelter.  I think, there should be some knowledge tie-ins. And don't forget that toady has some "scary chemicals to line shelves" planned, as well as the 1400 limit,  but the Kroll process could be possibly pulled off with 1400 tech (Albiet with extreme difficulty, imagine needing to produce chlorine without modern lab equipment.)

[AceSV]

So toady has mentioned that one of the fields of knowledge in the next release will be chemistry.  It could be required that a dwarf have a certain knowledge of chemistry before undertaking an alchemy job.  So a player cannot simply dig up rutile and wolframite, build an alchemy lab and get to work, the player needs to have a library with a sufficiently challenging book on chemistry and a dwarf needs to have spent a certain amount of time performing the research. 

[Kazturkey]

I'm a Chemist, so I thought I'd weigh in here - in terms of 14th century tech your base industry to have any kind of Chemistry happening will be glassmaking. High quality, shatter resistant and pure glass is the biggest obstacle to advancement in this regard. Beyond that, analysis techniques limit you in a big way.

[AceSV]

I'm a Chemist, so I thought I'd weigh in here - in terms of 14th century tech your base industry to have any kind of Chemistry happening will be glassmaking. High quality, shatter resistant and pure glass is the biggest obstacle to advancement in this regard. Beyond that, analysis techniques limit you in a big way.

Interesting.  I've been wondering for a while what sort of tools should be required before starting alchemy, and I wouldn't have thought of glass.  I don't have time to further research these, but after a quick look, Bohemian Glass and Murano/Venetian Glass were the highest qualities of glass during DF appropriate era.

Another option could be to require an Alchemic Glass item that is similar to an anvil, something that you need to make in order to make.   

[Alfrodo]

An Alembic? Perhaps?

[Niddhoger]

Separating chemicals through distillation was a boon to jumpstart early chemistry.  By boiling liquids at set temperatures and removing only what evaporated, you could gain pure samples of otherwise unobtainable substances (since they were always found mixed).  The earliest accounts of dstilliation go back about 2000 years (ancient Greeks, Arabs, and Chinese).  These typically used specialized glasswear.  Like plastic, glass is mostly chemically inert, but also hard, has a high melting point, and is clear.  These properties make it very ideal for handling chemicals (other materials like copper would possibly taint your results)  Those glass beakers that have the long thing necks bent downwards (called either alembic or retort)? Those are to collect the evaporated substance.  When it reaches the top of the glass, it begins to cool down to room temperature and condense back into a liquid.  This then slides down the neck and drains into another beaker.  You can even set up long chains of these that feed into each other, each beaker set over a different temperature to weed out another compound.  Cold water was also used to help speed up condensation. 

It would be something of a chicken and egg dilemna... a legendary glassmaker still wouldn't be able to make a set of phenomenal alchemical equipment if he had no idea what he was making.  He'd need to work closely with a chemist to know what he needed to make (what parts have to be sturdy/heat resistant, why this must be shaped exactly as it is, etc).  I say this only if chemsitry is going to be properly folded into the library/scholar/research system.  Chemistry techniques (and their specialized equipment) wouldn't be common knowledge taught at glassmaking school.  You'd need a chemist to make alchemical gear to have a chemist XD  Or at least someone finds a chemistry book/makes a basic discovery (with standard vials?).  This then unlocks the ability to make a proper "alchemical set" from the glassmaker.  Once this is done, the chemist can properly go hog wild. 

[Starver]

Chickens and eggs already suggest the solution.

The first chicken came from an egg laid by a not-quite-chicken.  (Whether you call that egg a "chicken egg", for containing a chicken, or "not a chicken egg", because it was laid by a not-chicken, becomes semantics.)  We already have glassmaking for vials, so even if anything more complicated needs to be 'discovered', I can imagine vials being at the base level of alchemical discovery from which the use and need of more complex items can be introduced.

Although there is a precedence with anvils (for the player (at least) no anvil can be created without an anvil already), burettes, alembics and the rest could be (mimetically, if not physically) reliant only upon prior stages of glasswear and more basic alchemy having been accomplished.  Or perhaps particular concoctions of resilient glass (a level beyond crystal glass) need a substance that only prior successful alchemy can provide as ingredient (barium? ...no, that's optical glass... boron, that's what I think we'd need).  Or as an expensive trade-item, coming from who-knows-where like the original anvils have done.

(Assuming borax, if that's what we want, isn't obtainable from volcanic springwater and salt-pans.  If either of these find their way into the possible local geologies of DF, both of which might be useful to have added to the game for reasons other than alchemy, but maybe also this...)

[Bumber]

You could use FB glass. Don't forget we're working in a setting where magic exists.

[SixOfSpades]

Don't forget that chemistry, including true distillation, is very much a part of the various aspects of cooking & brewing. To say that "alchemy has to wait until the proper tools are developed" would have the effect of making several plants unbrewable until the fort has at least a few pieces of crystal glass, which then have to be formed into exactly the right types of glassware. That doesn't sound like it would be a popular change.

In my head-canon DF, dwarves invent brewing beer, elves invent vinting wine, & humans invent distilling spirits, and the knowledge of the three forms of booze are exchanged through trade. Distillation, the most difficult and scientifically advanced process, is discovered by the humans because of their acceptance of fire & mechanics from the dwarves, and agrarian techniques from the elves.

[AceSV]

In my head-canon DF, dwarves invent brewing beer, elves invent vinting wine, & humans invent distilling spirits, and the knowledge of the three forms of booze are exchanged through trade. Distillation, the most difficult and scientifically advanced process, is discovered by the humans because of their acceptance of fire & mechanics from the dwarves, and agrarian techniques from the elves.

I've always thought of dwarves as masters of all alcohol.  A mushroom?  Huh, let's turn it into booze.  Radishes?  Booze.  Bee vomit?  Booze.  That cave plant we make fabric out of?  Booze. 

The pursuit of alcohol mixed with the pursuit of metallurgy should make dwarves prime alchemists.  One of the other potential uses for Alchemy I've mentioned in the past would be "weapons grade" or "fuel grade" ethanol.  Medicines could also be produced, or poisons with all that snake and bee venom we get from caravans. 

Alchemy is the art of liberating parts of the Cosmos from temporal existence and achieving perfection which, for metals is gold, and for man, longevity, then immortality and, finally, redemption. Material perfection was sought through the action of a preparation (Philosopher's Stone for metals; Elixir of Life for humans), while spiritual ennoblement resulted from some form of inner revelation or other enlightenment (Gnosis, for example, in Hellenistic and western practices).  -HJ Sheppard - Wikipedia

I'm suddenly really interested in what else Alchemy could do, and I'm not sure I want to make another topic for it.  Here's a few quotes from wikipedia:

Alchemists made contributions to the "chemical" industries of the day—ore testing and refining, metalworking, production of gunpowder, ink, dyes, paints, cosmetics, leather tanning, ceramics, glass manufacture, preparation of extracts, liquors, and so on.

...Dating from 300 to 500 CE, they contained recipes for dyeing and making artificial gemstones, cleaning and fabricating pearls, and manufacturing of imitation gold and silver

muriatic (hydrochloric acid), sulfuric and nitric acids, and Aqua Regia

Jabir's ultimate goal was Takwin, the artificial creation of life in the alchemical laboratory, up to, and including, human life.  (I've often heard this as the "Homonculus".  Secrets, anyone?)

Rhazes(854-925) refuted Aristotle's theory of four classical elements for the first time and set up the firm foundations of modern chemistry, using the laboratory in the modern sense, designing and describing more than twenty instruments, many parts of which are still in use today, such as a crucible, cucurbit or retort for distillation, and the head of a still with a delivery tube (ambiq, Latin alembic), and various types of furnace or stove.

By refining bases into gold, the Chinese alchemists believed that immortal life would be delivered if the "fake" or synthetic gold was ingested.

Although metal compounds are more potent when curing ailments, herbs were used because they were easier to combine and more abundantly available. To make medicines one would use ingredients like: Kolo nuts, which would be used in famous longevity pills like "Fo-Ti-Ti"; Asparagus, which was used because it was known to increase strength; sesame, which prevents senility; and pine which has over 300 different uses. (Cooper, 1990. Pg. 62) Mushrooms were and still are very popular, they are known as the "magic fungus" and have thousands of purposes within Chinese Alchemy.

Will Durant:  Something has been said about the chemical excellence of cast iron in ancient India, and about the high industrial development of the Gupta times, when India was looked to, even by Imperial Rome, as the most skilled of the nations in such chemical industries as dyeing, tanning, soap-making, glass and cement... By the sixth century the Hindus were far ahead of Europe in industrial chemistry; they were masters of calcinations, distillation, sublimation, steaming, fixation, the production of light without heat, the mixing of anesthetic and soporific powders, and the preparation of metallic salts, compounds and alloys. The tempering of steel was brought in ancient India to a perfection unknown in Europe till our own times (1930s); King Porus is said to have selected, as a specially valuable gift from Alexander, not gold or silver, but thirty pounds of steel.

[Niddhoger]

Don't forget that chemistry, including true distillation, is very much a part of the various aspects of cooking & brewing. To say that "alchemy has to wait until the proper tools are developed" would have the effect of making several plants unbrewable until the fort has at least a few pieces of crystal glass, which then have to be formed into exactly the right types of glassware. That doesn't sound like it would be a popular change.

In my head-canon DF, dwarves invent brewing beer, elves invent vinting wine, & humans invent distilling spirits, and the knowledge of the three forms of booze are exchanged through trade. Distillation, the most difficult and scientifically advanced process, is discovered by the humans because of their acceptance of fire & mechanics from the dwarves, and agrarian techniques from the elves.

.... except hard liquor wasn't created until the 1200s and didn't catch on until at least the 1400s (it was only used medicinely/in experiments at first).  Fermenting wine and beer has nothing to do with distillation.  Some of the first wine brewing was simply burrying giant pots filled with grape juice and some yeast.  Dig it back up in a few months, stir it, bury again.  Boom.  Wine.  Also, the retorts and alembics weren't in common use until the 900s or so, and they were definitely used to distill the first proper hard liquor in Salerno (1200s).  While other distilliation techniques were available before then (like hte freeze method), proper retorts and such are the best general ones until you reach the modern age when vacuum distilliation and other fun techniques were developed. 

Ancient alchemy isn't all about the glass alembics, however they are the ones that are the most grounded in actual chemistry.  You don't need to use distillation either, if the compound you want would naturally be hte last one remaining in a boiling pot.  You really do need pure, consistent materials to work with to get proper results.  Isolating compounds through distillation is one of the main methods of doing this, otherwise your sources could have traces of other compounds that are interfering with your experiment.  Basically, you'd just be piddling around.  There are other techniques and tools to use, but good glassware would be a solid base for "practical" alchemy that is quasi-supported by actual chemistry.

If you wanted to just go "fuck it, its magic" I suppose you could make up any rules or requirements you wanted.  However, some type of "anvil-like" core would likely be needed to assemble an alchemy station.  I'd also strongly recommend you need a burgeoning chemist on hand to coach the production of w/e those tools happen to be.  If this knowledge was just created, then common dorfmenship wouldn't be able to properly cover it. 

Also... pointing out that brewing certain plants (dwarven RUM) pressuposses distilliation is really missing the point.  This is still alpha DF, and those systems (along with farming) are extremely over simplified and half-assed.  Where is the fuel needed to "cook" ingredients? Where is the extra water needed to brew ANY form of alcohol? How is flour combined with raw fruits and pig intestines with no other ingredients!?

[Starver]

How is flour combined with raw fruits and pig intestines with no other ingredients!?

Sounds like some sort of almost-meatless sausage-dessert.