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[forsaken1111]

I am pretty excited about the upcoming warfare changes and wargoal overhaul. It looks like they're moving it to a more EU4-esque system

[ZeroGravitas]

Here I'll break down for you how I customize my robot civ's planets in regards to energy.

Certain tiles have bonuses. A 2 power bonus is somewhere I would put a power plant, because it improves the tile I put it on. That's part one of customization.

After that, there are buildings like energy grids (+20%) and the synchronicity building for assimilators (+15%). At that point, those 4-5 bits of energy I properly placed power on are boosted. That's part two.

After that, I place by customized robot population down on the proper tile. For Energy, I have a robot pop that has +10% to energy generation. Since it costs nothing to create a new buildable robot template, this is essentially free energy. That tile now has additional percentage boosts because I took a minute to think about how I could get more out of it.  With organic races, I can use genetic manipulation or a multicultural civ to achieve this effect to a lesser degree. Part three.

Then, when I get civ-wide power bonuses, be they from buildings or events, my planned out energy grid gets even more efficient. With these steps I can turn that extra 2-power tile bonus into a fat stack of energy.

thank you for walking me through how energy is calculated.

If you specialize (dare I say, customize) your planets you can get a lot more out of them. Not to be rude, but frankly it feels like you just don't know how to exploit the current system. It works, it's more engaging and interactive than "click to add more numbers to my list" and has plenty of options per-planet.

literally the opposite. it is so boneheadedly simple to "exploit the current system" that there is no thought required to do so. when you've conquered all the fallen empires by ~2120 and have to wait 80 years just to see what the crisis is going to be, you start to think about what's wrong with the game.

in any case, nothing you said has anything to do with Tiles versus generic slots. A +energy pop in a generic slot would get the exact same bonuses as a +energy pop in a Tile.

Also, Tile bonuses are actually irrelevant to Tiles, too. You would just give them as a flat bonus to planets, since that's exactly what they are. I mean, was it a deeply engaging choice to put an Energy building on the goddamn +Energy tile?

Also why would I need to count mines rather than mineral output in planet details? That's like counting how many wallets I have instead of how much cash is inside them.

it's like you're right on the verge of figuring it out...

[Dunamisdeos]

1) You are welcome.

2) I can decide not to put a building into the bonus slot if I so choose. I can decide to use adjacency buildings like mineral processing to achieve the same effect as energy. Giving a planet +2 energy that you get regardless of whether you build a building on the right spot does in fact remove options. Placing and clicking provides more visual interaction with the game world. Making decisions adds a level of strategy to the game, and while it might be thin to you or I, it creates a system to learn and master. A slot system that just places pops where they should ideally go removes this as well. That doesn't even get into things like unique buildings that don't affect Power/Minerals/Research.

3) Okie dokie Mr. Condescending Vitriol, just try not to get too much pepper in your salt over your pet theory: I don't need to count mines. I need to count minerals. Your reference to counting mines in nonsensical, because number of mines does not equal number of minerals. There is no reason to change anything from what it is in this regard, because a readout of exactly what my planet is producing is one click away. There is measurable loss including player interaction, visual engagement, and options for construction.

Your described slot system is in and of itself intrinsically extraneous, because without tiles there is no reason to have pops. You only need sliders for Power/Minerals/Research as you build buildings. A slot system adds exactly nothing to the game, removes visual engagement, and removes options that do in fact exist whether you find them worthwhile or not.

If the current system is so "boneheadedly simple" then what possible benefit could you find in measurably removing depth from it?

[Cruxador]

in any case, nothing you said has anything to do with Tiles versus generic slots. A +energy pop in a generic slot would get the exact same bonuses as a +energy pop in a Tile.

Also, Tile bonuses are actually irrelevant to Tiles, too. You would just give them as a flat bonus to planets, since that's exactly what they are. I mean, was it a deeply engaging choice to put an Energy building on the goddamn +Energy tile?

Although it's mechanically similar, the feel conveyed is totally different. Not everything about a game can be effectively boiled down to how the numbers work out.

[Dunamisdeos]

in any case, nothing you said has anything to do with Tiles versus generic slots. A +energy pop in a generic slot would get the exact same bonuses as a +energy pop in a Tile.

Also, Tile bonuses are actually irrelevant to Tiles, too. You would just give them as a flat bonus to planets, since that's exactly what they are. I mean, was it a deeply engaging choice to put an Energy building on the goddamn +Energy tile?

Although it's mechanically similar, the feel conveyed is totally different. Not everything about a game can be effectively boiled down to how the numbers work out.

And because of adjacency bonuses, which can be exploited, you won't come out with the same production. You would have to rebalance things significantly in order to accommodate a planet-wide bonus as opposed to by-tile bonus which is further influenced by adjacency bonus.

Similar, but not the same, and not necessarily even simpler save in base interface.

[Singularity125]

Ugh. I have just started getting into this game but I have to say... I am getting my ass kicked. Trying to play a Pacifist Egalitarian Xenophile is just not working out. I'm trying to do the whole win by Federation thing and well, it's not so effective when a fallen empire awakens and makes half the galaxy its thralls. But I guess I'm still learning how to properly exploit things...

Not much to add I guess but to vent, and point out that not all of us are conquering fallen empires so early (2320 I assume you mean? Since it starts in 2200). Ah well, I realize "losing is fun" is the motto around here so I'll get back at it soon enough. I've just crossed the 2400 line before taking a break so I guess I'll soon see what Crisis befalls me... I can only hope they go after the bigger guys first.

[ZeroGravitas]

2) I can decide not to put a building into the bonus slot if I so choose. I can decide to use adjacency buildings like mineral processing to achieve the same effect as energy.

Mineral Processing (Plant) is not an adjacency building. It's a planet-wide bonus, which is just one more instance my point: Stellaris undercuts its own Tile system instead of using it. Most of the bonus buildings use planet-wide bonuses, not adjacency bonuses. In a game of planet-wide bonuses, why does the physical relationship of the Tiles matter? It doesn't. Of course, yes, the exception is capitals. But the size of the effect just isn't enough to matter. Even if you intentionally ruined your physical layout, your research would be 100% the same, and your minerals/food/power would be basically unaffected (maximum 8 different over the entire planet).

Giving a planet +2 energy that you get regardless of whether you build a building on the right spot does in fact remove options. Placing and clicking provides more visual interaction with the game world. Making decisions adds a level of strategy to the game, and while it might be thin to you or I, it creates a system to learn and master. A slot system that just places pops where they should ideally go removes this as well.

Well, "thin" kind of gives it away, doesn't it? But ok, I see your point, especially when it comes to food/research deposits, as you inevitably build over those at some point. Fine.

But that doesn't get to the real point, does it? If the Tiles were 25x1 instead of 5x5, that wouldn't affect Tiles deposits, would it? The spatial relationship doesn't matter in the current implementation of buildings and Tiles.

That doesn't even get into things like unique buildings that don't affect Power/Minerals/Research.

So... Unity? Other than that there literally are no buildings that don't affect Power/Minerals/Research. Which is another failing of the current system.

3) I don't need to count mines. I need to count minerals. Your reference to counting mines in nonsensical, because number of mines does not equal number of minerals.

YES! That's exactly the point!

And how did you get to the minerals? By building Mining Networks. You had to enact, repeatedly, a specific set of actions: building and upgrading mines. And the number of times you do that is absurdly tedious - or, to use your own words, nonsensical. You are exactly right that there is nothing important or interesting about how many mines you built! But THAT'S the gameplay. That's the thing you have to do when you engage with the building system. Click Build Mine and Upgrade Mine X number of times until you've filled up all the Tiles you want to devote to mines.

Your described slot system is in and of itself intrinsically extraneous, because without tiles there is no reason to have pops. You only need sliders for Power/Minerals/Research as you build buildings. A slot system adds exactly nothing to the game, removes visual engagement, and removes options that do in fact exist whether you find them worthwhile or not.

If the current system is so "boneheadedly simple" then what possible benefit could you find in measurably removing depth from it?

First, of course you can (and should) have pops without Tiles - that's exactly what MOO2 does. And second, you could also very well have just sliders and no pops - that's what the original MOO did, and it worked fine. But you've totally misunderstood what I'm saying.

I AM NOT saying that they should just switch a slot system like MOO2. I am saying that Tiles, as implemented, don't add anything to the game beyond what slots add except the tedium of clicking on specific Tiles over and over.

My point isn't that Tiles should be removed from the game. My solution is that there should be vastly more and better adjacency interactions between building and pops so that the system actually takes advantage of its sole redeeming feature: spatial relationships between pops and buildings on the planet grid. But the current system barely acknowledges the Tiles at all.

[Mephansteras]

There is a very good mod I was using in the previous version that did just that. It had a ton of different buildings, including ones that had to be built next to specific tile blockers (which then could not be removed). Added a lot more thought to planets - do I keep this tile blocker so I can build this neat building, or do I remove it to put something else there?

Complicates things a bit, but I enjoyed it. I should see if it has been updated for the latest version.

[ZeroGravitas]

There is a very good mod I was using in the previous version that did just that. It had a ton of different buildings, including ones that had to be built next to specific tile blockers (which then could not be removed). Added a lot more thought to planets - do I keep this tile blocker so I can build this neat building, or do I remove it to put something else there?

Complicates things a bit, but I enjoyed it. I should see if it has been updated for the latest version.

If it's AlphaMod, the answer was no, last I checked. If it's not, please let us know what it is.

[Mephansteras]

Ah, it's Landscapers! Which is really just a subset of the Alpha mod. I was using it because I didn't want everything the Alpha mod did. Looks like it does have a 1.8 version, though.

[ZeroGravitas]

Ah, it's Landscapers! Which is really just a subset of the Alpha mod. I was using it because I didn't want everything the Alpha mod did. Looks like it does have a 1.8 version, though.

Yeah - I haven't checked in on alphamod generally or landscapers in a while and I really should. He had a lot of good ideas about how to make blockers more interesting although some of them are a bit weird in the Tiles system. Things like not clearing Jungle but instead building a research station next to it are great, for example.

[Dunamisdeos]

I got snarky earlier, I had a bad day. Sorry folks.

I have an thought: What if you played assimilators and then got rid of all your robots and only used the cyborg/assimilated civs? It would be like playing an organic civ that starts with cybernetic. Also, no happiness and machine civics like +20% engineering.

Fun for something different? Completely awful? What are you guys' thoughts.

[ZeroGravitas]

I got snarky earlier, I had a bad day. Sorry folks.

I have an thought: What if you played assimilators and then got rid of all your robots and only used the cyborg/assimilated civs? It would be like playing an organic civ that starts with cybernetic. Also, no happiness and machine civics like +20% engineering.

Fun for something different? Completely awful? What are you guys' thoughts.

I don't know why you'd get rid of your robots; you still have no happiness problems with them. When I did Assimilators I had robots with +science and cyborgs with +minerals.

There's also the Machine Worlds issue - cyborgs can't live on them. I think they will be able to next patch?

[Dunamisdeos]

Yeah I'd probably go ring worlds or whatnot. Not a min/max kind of game, but no energy maint or cost per pop, but multiple other benefits that only robot civs get.

[E. Albright]

Cyborgs still have energy maintenance instead of food, so you wouldn't be getting away from that, at least.