Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 198 199 [200] 201 202 ... 632

Author Topic: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE  (Read 1746490 times)

takfpbi

  • Escaped Lunatic
    • View Profile
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2985 on: July 05, 2016, 01:39:17 am »

I remember this one 4x game I saw where each race you added to your own was a flat out bonus (representing a bonus you got for diversity). It also featured government types that drastically altered gameplay (for example the Bees had a Monarchy with an immortal ruler... If that leader dies then they get such terrible penalties they basically die off).

It had its fair share of problems but honestly it has many great ideas that I am astonished 4x games just avoid like the plague.
Sounds interesting, but I don't get anything with google. Do you have a name/link?

I mostly quit games a few years ago, but I've followed the space 4x games that have come out. My impression of Stellaris is basically what you wrote: a loose pile of systems, many of which seem to contribute little, nothing, or even negative value to gameplay, tied into a 3D engine.

In my addled head, the chain of degeneracy goes roughly like this: Some minor demon invents chess, which has two kings. They fight. Pretty soon the queens want to know why can't they build a space ship instead of capturing everybody. All hell breaks loose with religious victories, cultural victories, gerbil victories, tribbles pouring through the door, inmates running the asylum, and no one knows what they are supposed to be doing. Someone says "shit man we need a game designer" and someone else says "nah we have 3D write code every day" and then it's just air horns all the way down.

Hmm, looks like I have made this same post twice already.

You see lads, the internet is the real game. Stellaris is just another app to keep you on the internet. Mission accomplished, Paradox makes money and gets to keep making apps, everyone is happy.

internet : ecumenism :: science : ... :: crusty shell : juicy center

:o

gtg, working on Hermetic theory of... no shhh no
Logged

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2986 on: July 05, 2016, 01:43:24 am »

A friend told me it was Distant Worlds. Really expensive on Steam (60 bucks)
Logged

Orange Wizard

  • Bay Watcher
  • mou ii yo
    • View Profile
    • S M U G
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2987 on: July 05, 2016, 02:25:14 am »

Except that you don't get anything even remotely useful from them. :I
I just like studying debris.
Logged
Please don't shitpost, it lowers the quality of discourse
Hard science is like a sword, and soft science is like fear. You can use both to equally powerful results, but even if your opponent disbelieve your stabs, they will still die.

Zangi

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2988 on: July 05, 2016, 03:33:56 am »

A friend told me it was Distant Worlds. Really expensive on Steam (60 bucks)
It does go on sale every now and then.  It is also finished with the complete package.

Stellaris is going to end up being more expensive then the 40 bucks plus DLC.  Well, you could also wait for the sales, but I reckon a number of people have already sunk in 40 dollars.  I'm pretty sure, if you are patient... the whole shebang+sales, you are still going over 60 bucks in the end.

'Expensive' is a poor argument when sales are a thing and when you compare it to the Paradox sales strategy.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 03:35:46 am by Zangi »
Logged
All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu...  This is the truth! This is my belief! ... At least for now...
FMA/FMA:B Recommendation

forsaken1111

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • TTB Twitch
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2989 on: July 05, 2016, 05:47:54 am »

Except that you don't get anything even remotely useful from them. :I
I just like studying debris.
I get that but it's actually harmful/counterproductive after a certain point to study space monster debris. Mostly because the bug STILL exists where your research points don't correctly 'store' while your research is paused during the debris scan so you LOSE those months of research.
Logged

ZeroGravitas

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2990 on: July 05, 2016, 09:15:24 am »

A friend told me it was Distant Worlds. Really expensive on Steam (60 bucks)

yeah, take a look at the DLC list for CK2 or EU4 and get back to me
Logged

ZeroGravitas

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2991 on: July 05, 2016, 09:32:35 am »

(I'd love it if Xenophiles and Xenophobes get different sets rare techs)

They do. Only Xenophobes can get Purity Campaigns, for example.

That said, everything else you said is pretty much on point.
Logged

Exerosp

  • Bay Watcher
  • Not Caught Lunatic
    • View Profile
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2992 on: July 05, 2016, 12:00:15 pm »

A friend told me it was Distant Worlds. Really expensive on Steam (60 bucks)

yeah, take a look at the DLC list for CK2 or EU4 and get back to me
Or take a look at the DLC list for Fallout4!
Logged

PTTG??

  • Bay Watcher
  • Kringrus! Babak crulurg tingra!
    • View Profile
    • http://www.nowherepublishing.com
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2993 on: July 05, 2016, 02:02:07 pm »

Ok, here's my plan to fix Stellaris.

Part I: Sectors:
  • There is no limit on the number of sectors. (We're making sectors much more common.)
  • Sector size is limited to the same as your core systems cap, and like that cap, only counts inhabited systems. (They are now smaller, and anyway who said that governors can lead any number of planets, but emperors only five?)
  • Each sector grants one free Governor slot. (They are much more common now, and one large advantage of governors is that they give bonuses to their sectors.)
  • Each inhabited system in a sector grants (for example) 0.125 influence/mo. Each sector, however, costs (for example) 0.5 influence/mo. (Fully filled sectors provide influence, but small ones weaken your empire by fracturing the power structure.)
  • Other empire's sectors are visible on the map.
  • Sectors may be ceeded, released, abandoned, etc., as planets are, and are more efficient warscore wise. If so ceded, it's possible to gain a large sector you would not be able to create if your enemy has a cap of 6 and you have 5, for instance. (Sectors become a kind of player-built terrain)
  • Ceded and independent sectors are less unhappy than individual planets.
  • Mining stations in sectors gain a baseline productivity bonus in addition to receiving bonuses from governors. Sectors build mines and research stations in controlled star systems. (To give a reason to put any kind of uninhabited system in a sector.)
  • Sectors now pay upkeep on all their structures first, then take (for example) 10% of the remaining resources for local investment, then pass everything else up to the empire. (This makes specialized sectors actually quite rewarding rather than having them pay more and more resources into a useless local bank.)
  • The Empire may trade energy for minerals with sectors by default, and some forms of governance may also use influence, or simply take minerals from local banks by fiat. Non-collectivist citizens dislike this, if large amounts are taken! On the other hand, happy sectors (and Eager governors) may provide resources to the Empire for free.

Part II: Research:
  • There are now "core techs" that are required to climb the tech tree -- possibly just the research lab upgrades. They are required to obtain the next level, and they themselves require several techs of the same level (for instance, Cold Fusion Reactors now requires Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions (Worse woo than having psionics, but I digress...), which requires at least, say, three tier II techs such as Fusion Missiles and Fusion Reactors). These slow down tech tree climb while maintaining the rate of tech tree diversification.
  • Ethos techs and Rare techs are now distinguished.
  • Ethos techs are much more common for their respective ethos, but having populations with the require ethos increases the chance that tech will show up even in conflicting empires. (Related: Empire Ethos Drift.)
  • Rare techs each have a chance of not being visible for your empire at all. All empires have at least one rare tech.
  • Because of the above, there are more rare techs, and many provide precocious features. Immortality Agents (+100 Leader Age), Away Teams (Gain science points by surveying), Stasis Shields (Shield strength is doubled), etc.
  • Ideally, throw in one more way for empires to get normally-blocked techs. Possibly a repeatable tech called "revolutionary theories" that rerolls the techs.
  • Reorganize technology classification. Physics is core technologies and materials, while engineering is practical applications. You can't climb them independently; rather, focusing on one or the other will get you either broader application or taller theory.

Part III: Combat:
  • It is possible to bind combat ships with non-combat ships to create escorts.
  • Non-combat ships without escorts automatically use emergency jump to retreat.
  • All star systems are at least doubled in scale; possibly just halve the visual size of starships. Maybe both.
  • New commands: Break off attack, which attempts to disengage without leaving the system. Against stationary foes, the ships simply leave.
  • Combat vessels ignore mining and research stations unless ordered to destroy them. These stations no longer have defenses, and they cost 25 minerals less than before.
  • Unfuck the balance among weapon and defense systems. Armor, PD, and shields always provide some protection. Crystal plating variants require energy upkeep.
  • Remove the dramatic advantages of wormholes. I'm thinking increase range of Warp and speed of lanes.
  • Now possible to change wargoals midwar, especially if tyrannical.
  • Postwar truces are negotiated as part of the wargoal; it's possible to force a 100-year pact or just an immediate ceasefire instead of ten fixed years.
  • Breaking treaties possible
  • Possible to violate closed borders. Military may fire on trespassers without necessarily starting a war, although "border incidents" can flare up into conflicts.
  • Removes pointless restrictions on non-aggression treaties to only neighbors. Long-distance combat happens all the time! I mean seriously, what were they thinking?!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 05:16:48 pm by PTTG?? »
Logged
A thousand million pool balls made from precious metals, covered in beef stock.

stabbymcstabstab

  • Bay Watcher
  • OW SNAP!
    • View Profile
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2994 on: July 05, 2016, 02:06:53 pm »

-snip-
This all of this, I shouldn't have to wait for the first 15-20 dollar dlc to actually have a playable game.
Logged
Long Live Arst- United Forenia!
"Wanna be a better liberal? Go get shot in the fuckin' face."
Contemplate why we have a sociopathic necrophiliac RAPIST sadomasochist bipolar monster in our ranks, also find some cheese.

Teneb

  • Bay Watcher
  • (they/them) Penguin rebellion
    • View Profile
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2995 on: July 05, 2016, 02:26:44 pm »

Makes me want to get into stellaris modding to at least do some of the above
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 04:45:00 pm by Teneb »
Logged
Monstrous Manual: D&D in DF
Quote from: Tack
What if “slammed in the ass by dead philosophers” is actually the thing which will progress our culture to the next step?

ZeroGravitas

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2996 on: July 05, 2016, 04:43:42 pm »

  • Reorganize technology classification. Physics is core technologies and materials, while engineering is practical applications. You can't climb them independently; rather, focusing on one or the other will get you either broader application or taller theory.

Yeah, this. I've already started outlining something like this in a spreadsheet.
Logged

jhxmt

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2997 on: July 05, 2016, 05:04:24 pm »

--snip--

Please tell me that you've also posted this over on the Paradox forums.  There are a lot of really good ideas here.
Logged
Quote from: beefsupreme
Try slaughtering a ton of animals, meat makes less decisions than animals.

Why Your Ramps Don't Work
How To Breach A Volcano Safely

sambojin

  • Bay Watcher
  • Three seconds to catsplosion and counting.......
    • View Profile
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2998 on: July 05, 2016, 05:55:51 pm »

I think one of the main problems with Stellaris is that even YOUR race doesn't seem to matter too much. There's a few different interactions, a few caveats on how you set your colonies, but it's essentially same-old-same-old every game. You'll get along with some neighbours better or worse, but the means to the end seems to be the same in every game. Races are just slightly different blobs of friendliness/unfriendliness, colonies/planets are just good/bad/unavailable as pop centres, and your corvettes will take care of them all eventually, regardless. Maybe it's a balance thing, but it ends up being a bit bland.

Compare Alpha Centauri. It might not be a perfectly balanced game, but playing as each different faction actually did feel different. Build up or wide, outproduce or out monetize or out research or outfight your opponents. Government types were just bonuses, but they would have a definite effect on how you played. These tiny little bonuses had large effects, not only on diplomacy, but on your overall "grand strategy". Playing as Hive or Morganites or University or Fundamentalists all had "their thing", without them actually being that different from one another. Maybe it was because they were human, so you could relate to the differences in their outlooks and styles more easily, but they never really seemed bland or uninteresting, even when you were just steamrolling through them, one after another.

Compare Stars!. Each race you created would have a definite playstyle. From acceptable planet types (leading to intersettling agreements or disputed terrains), to mining types, to tech proficiencies, to hyper-growth/hyper-proficiency economies, every race has a "thing to do to succeed". Every Primary Racial Trait gave you a thing you were good at. Warmongers would zerg, Space Demolitionists would litter the galaxy with minefields, Interstellar Travellers had amazing defensive mobility, Super Stealth would appear from seemingly nowhere, and Hyper-Expanders would expand quickly at all costs. And therefore, you'd approach each one slightly differently depending on your own racial advantages, even if it came down to tonnes of warships and bombers in the end. Diplomacy was because of your race and theirs, what you needed could be vastly different to what they wanted in an area, and strategic advantage was exactly that. Not a slightly differently flavoured blob, actual differences in what was good for you and what you could do compared to them. So diplomacy followed on from there, not baked in as a like/dislike system. Considering you only got a few racial advantages, maybe a couple of tech toys, and every race was generic as hell, they all played very differently. Everyone would expand at all costs, but wars and interactions would have large consequences, and you did those things differently than your neighbours did. Even the galaxy that you played in was vanilla as hell. A wormhole could be a boon or terrifying or ignored completely, an opportunity to setup a pocket empire, or a backdoor directly into the heart of your own defenseless worlds. A tech trader was pretty random, but could give your entire empire another niche in the galaxy with what you got from them. These were the only two "events" in the game, but they worked.


Perhaps there's not enough actual ingame mechanics in Stellaris for differences in playstyles, races and strategies to really matter. Cities in SMAC depended on the terrain, your tech, your wonders, etc, as extra variables, along with customizable units and government types. Where you fought was just as important as what you fought with. Stars! had minefields, scanning/cloaking, mineral types, habitability, stargates and ship-type niches, all giving different ways of changing the playing field. Fleet design was both an artform and a science, and utility ships really mattered. Stellaris doesn't seem to approach this level of complexity, even though these aren't exactly complicated things for a 4X to have. There's grand strategy in it, but very few ways of truly altering the strategic or tactical playing field at a smaller level, other than bigger numbers and some rock/scissors/paper in fleet design. It's kind of lacking if it wants to be both things. Not enough mid/end-game events/outcomes for a satisfying grand strategy, but not enough strategic/tactical options for a 4X. Mostly due to a lack of mechanics in the smaller or bigger picture to have either.


So I'm not sure if heaps of different events will help out Stellaris. It certainly can't hurt, but I'd rather see races and government types actually mattering more. Tech toys really altering things mechanically, not just bonuses. Rather than being slightly better at something, actually being good at it, in a way that affects how you play the game and your objectives to win. Even if you've got to be bad at other things to be good at that one. But in a way that isn't just a +/- bonus, something that does effect what you do and how you do it. Bonuses can achieve this, but they don't seem to have achieved it with their current race creation stuff.

They did FTL space travel types "right", if only because they actually do affect how you play a bit. The rest seems to smear out and doesn't seem as characterful. Balance is a bitch, but things don't have to be perfectly balanced to be interesting and fun. THAT'S what patches are for, not adding in this sort of stuff to a game (that certainly should have been there to begin with). But hopefully they do add it in, be it by patches or DLC. As well as tonnes more events, because "Why not?".
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 09:36:39 pm by sambojin »
Logged
It's a game. Have fun.

Interus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Stellaris: Paradox Interactive IN SPACE
« Reply #2999 on: July 05, 2016, 06:58:52 pm »

  • Sectors now pay upkeep on all their structures first, then take (for example) 10% of the remaining resources for local investment, then pass everything else up to the empire. (This makes specialized sectors actually quite rewarding rather than having them pay more and more resources into a useless local bank.)
Other than being a different percentage, how is this different from sectors keeping 100/75/50/25% of their excess production and paying the rest up?
This hasn't been a complaint for me because I generally take as much as I can and actually end up paying my sectors so they can upgrade, although that might not be the case if they where smaller.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 198 199 [200] 201 202 ... 632