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[LordBucket]

Adam and Bob are both guys. Christina and Debbie are both girls. All four of them embark on identical art projects.


Adam spends five minutes slapping something hastily together. The result is ugly. But nobody cares, because he's a guy so so what?

Bob invests a great deal of time and effort into the project, and his results are pleasing and impressive. But nobody cares, because he's a guy so so what?

Christina spends five minutes slapping something hastily together. The result is ugly. She is lavished with attention and compliments because she's a girl. Nobody cares about her project.

Debbie invests a great deal of time and effort into the project, and her results are pleasing and impressive.  She is lavished with attention and compliments because she's a girl. Nobody cares about her project.


Rank from who has it best to who has it worst. Explain why.

[Criptfeind]

Not enough information given.

[Caz]

Adam and Bob are both guys. Christina and Debbie are both girls. All four of them embark on identical art projects.


Adam spends five minutes slapping something hastily together. The result is ugly. But nobody cares, because he's a guy so so what?

Bob invests a great deal of time and effort into the project, and his results are pleasing and impressive. But nobody cares, because he's a guy so so what?

Christina spends five minutes slapping something hastily together. The result is ugly. She is lavished with attention and compliments because she's a girl. Nobody cares about her project.

Debbie invests a great deal of time and effort into the project, and her results are pleasing and impressive.  She is lavished with attention and compliments because she's a girl. Nobody cares about her project.


Rank from who has it best to who has it worst. Explain why.

Bob=Debbie>Adam=Christina

Putting effort into a project is its own reward.


Edit: On the opinions of other people on the project, they seem pretty much equal. No one cares about the projects - they only seem to care because 'girl', whether the project was good or not, so it's not really a factor in the whole thing. So even if you considered outside opinion on the projects to be a factor, it would be completely irrelevant in the scoring of the thing, imo.

[LordBucket]

Not enough information given.

A significant portion of the purpose of the exercise is to see how you fill in the missing information with your own assumptions.

[Caz]

Not enough information given.

A significant portion of the purpose of the exercise is to see how you fill in the missing information with your own assumptions.

Are you gonna analyse the results that are posted?

[SirQuiamus]

But nobody cares, because he's a guy so so what? ... because he's a guy
...
She is lavished with attention and compliments because she's a girl ... because she's a girl.

Uh-oh, sounds like straight white males are being oppressed again – LB to the rescue! Time to check your Female Privilege, bitches!

[Arx]

But nobody cares, because he's a guy so so what? ... because he's a guy
...
She is lavished with attention and compliments because she's a girl ... because she's a girl.

Uh-oh, sounds like straight white males are being oppressed again – LB to the rescue! Time to check your Female Privilege, bitches!

Heh:

A significant portion of the purpose of the exercise is to see how you fill in the missing information with your own assumptions.

I interpreted that same statement as being far more society screwing over the girl. I was actually chatting to an English teacher a while ago who was outraged at a parent telling her they thought their son was doing well in English because she (the teacher) was pretty. It erases the effort they put in just because they're female.


My own thoughts? Everyone here is screwed over. Bob and Debbie from a purely interpersonal standpoint have it equally bad (and worse than Adam and Christina, who are equal too), because they actually tried but were given the same acknowledgment as the people who didn't try. The fact that their gender is causing it isn't really that relevant, although I guess Bob could be said to be worse off than Debbie, who was at least rewarded (even though she would have been anyway).

[Leafsnail]

Oh boy I can't wait to navigate my way through another incredibly loaded scenario.

[LordBucket]

Are you gonna analyse the results that are posted?

I was more curious to see the results than to critique them. This is to some extent a values judgement. It's sometimes difficult to critique or analyze values because they tend to be fundamental things that simply are, rather than things that are for reasons.

That said, your answer:

Bob=Debbie>Adam=Christina

Putting effort into a project is its own reward.

...seems politically correct, but I I'm a bit skeptical that a real human being would genuinely feel that way. But that might simply be my own personal and arbitrary values showing through.

Edit: On the opinions of other people on the project, they seem pretty much equal. No one cares about the projects - they only seem to care because 'girl', whether the project was good or not, so it's not really a factor in the whole thing. So even if you considered outside opinion on the projects to be a factor, it would be completely irrelevant in the scoring of the thing, imo.

I don't understand. By "scoring the thing" do you mean scoring the projects, or scoring as in ranking the "who has it best to worst?"

On the opinions of other people on the project, they seem pretty much equal. No one cares about the projects

Yes, it appears that way.

so it's not really a factor in the whole thing.

This is where I don't follow. Why does people not caring about the projects not factor in to your valuation of the experience for each of the various people involved? Some people are receiving praise, some are not. Some people are putting in effort, some are not. Some people's efforts are not being valued, whereas some people are not putting in effort that isn't being valued.

There are plenty of other criteria which render it possibly a factor.



Let me share my own answers. Maybe that will help.

I have difficulty with this one. I can see it a couple different ways. My initial "gut" impression is that Christina has it best, for a couple reasons: she's receiving praise, and that probably feels good. And she didn't have to go to much effort about a thing she probably didn't care about. Receiving warm fuzzies for very little effort seems like a good deal to me.

It seems to me that Bob and Debbie both have reason to be angry. Both of them put in effort and generated good results, but nobody cares about that. If you do something well and people appreciate it, that usually feels nice. Bob is putting in effort and doing well, but nobody appreciates that. Debbie is also putting in effort and doing well, but nobody appreciate that either.But, Debbie is at least receiving praise and attention, and that probably feels nicer, even it it's for a silly reason, than to not receive attention for an equally silly reason. So I think Debbie has it better than Bob.

Adam is tough to evaluate. There are lots of ways I can fill in the blanks. It really depends on how much he cares. If he used to be the guy who put in a lot of effort, but after never being appreciated and it never mattering what he did he simply gave up and stopped trying, that's an unpleasant place to be in. If that's the case, he probably has it worst. But if he simply doesn't care about the project, then it's not so bad.I can conceive of Debbie having it worse than Adam,  because again...she's putting in effort that isn't being appreciated. Adam isn't.

But on final analysis, I think of the four of them I'd personally most want to be Debbie. She's receiving praise and attention. That's nice. I'd rather be one of the people receiving praise than one of the people not. And she's also doing something and doing it well. That's also nice. I'd rather be one of the people doing something well than one of the people not doing something well. So yes, I'd most want to be Debbie.

But at the same time, attempting to be impartial, I think Debbie probably has it worse than Christina. Christina isn't pouring her heart and soul into something and having people not care about it. Debbie is. I'd still rather be Debbie than Christina, but there's definitely room for uncertainty there.

[Zangi]

From worst to best:
Debbie -> Bob = Christina -> Adam

Recognized for something mundane instead of that awesome thing you did.  It is arguably worse then not being recognized for that awesome thing at all.

[Leafsnail]

If you spend a lot of time on an art project do you really want to receive attention from creeps who are only interested in you sexually?

[Frumple]

Recognized for something mundane instead of that awesome thing you did.  It is arguably worse then not being recognized for that awesome thing at all.

In my experience, it's a matter of frequency. The first time or two you're lauded for doing little, it maybe feels a little nice (and probably confusing, because it's pretty bloody likely you recognize you haven't done anything worthy of notable praise). It very, very quickly stops feeling even remotely good, and can start feeling very, very shitty. By and large means the people showing appreciation don't actually give a damn about what you do, and entirely devaluate your actions. There's not really any amount of praise that makes up for someone implicitly saying your effort is worth shit to them.

Can actually end up being a nasty bit of psychological mess-up if it's persistent enough. I've seen some folks kinda' screwed over by unmoderated praise. Can start generating some very serious ennui and apathy, or kick off some major narcissism problems. Not good juju.

Insofar as ranking goes, I'd mostly agree with Caz. My caveat would be that I don't think any of them is actually in a net positive situation -- there's no best in this scenario, just least worst.

[Caz]

I I'm a bit skeptical that a real human being would genuinely feel that way.

You got me. Beep beep beep.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Trapezohedron]

To make it so I operate on my own biases, let's rename people a bit.

Adam is now Manuel. Debbie is now Denise. Bob is now Dave. Christina is now Kimberly.

All of the above are in the same group, doing a university project. Denise leads the group. She does a lot of effort on the group project, almost equal if not exactly to Dave's. Kimberly and Manuel do their chores individually, as assigned by Denise. They're fine with it, as they're not confident with their art abilities.

Kimberly and Manuel slap something hastily together. Manuel's project gets ignored, but no one care's since he's a guy. Kimberly does the same, but they pay attention to her slightly, in part due to "stressing herself out on the project" and trying her best to do whatever she does. She is lavished with attention.

Now, Denise and Dave's projects, they both spent equal amounts of time and effort. Dave's completed his work, but nobody cares, since he's a guy.

Denise, however, gets all the attention just for attempting to do the thing, yet no real attention is paid on the project she made. She is immediately lavished with honors, praises and professor favoritism simply by being a girl, trying her best looking studious even when both Denise and Dave have equal knowledge skills.

Best to worst, if it's in terms of how much people praised something, is Denise, Kimberly, Dave = Manuel.

Disclaimer: partly based on my own life, if anybody didn't already catch the hint.

[Rolan7]

Debbie, Christina, Bob, Adam
Debbie has the drive and social resources necessary to possibly escape this sexist nightmare.  If she wants to.
Christina probably doesn't care and can live happily in this sexist nightmare
Bob might be able to escape this sexist nightmare with his own determination
Adam is SOL and will probably be castrated or something