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Author Topic: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge  (Read 10040 times)

Araph

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2015, 01:32:56 pm »

So far the only concrete advice I've received is from retropunch and mainiac
...
Suggest actual books (by name!), whether which ones to take out or which ones to add in.
'Figure Drawing for All It's Worth'

Congratulations, you have another suggestion.
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kytuzian

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2015, 01:44:38 pm »

So far the only concrete advice I've received is from retropunch (regarding the Four Great Books) and mainiac (Regarding the economics section (did not know Capitalism and Freedom was that bad btw, thanks for the heads-up - is Sowell still relevant? I am reading him now, I'd like to know if it is objective. Also, why remove Security Analysis? Redundant, bad or can be better?), everyone else is being too broad in their advice. Suggest actual books (by name!), whether which ones to take out or which ones to add in.

Fair enough. My vote is to include:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Computer_Programming

Only 3 books on all of technology seems terribly inadequate. Playing right into my stereotype I suppose :). I don't know what readable means, so maybe this doesn't fit, but if they have to be readable (in the sense of, say, a novel) it seems like the criteria have been changed specifically to suit literature and not knowledge in general. And I don't what you mean about not being able to learn technical subjects from books. You'd definitely do better than learning them from scratch on your own (which is the whole point of compiling human knowledge.

Also, if you can include all the works of Shakespeare in one "book" (The Complete Works of Shakespeare), why not group together The Odyssey and The Illiad, Brothers Karamazov and Crime and Punishment, Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake, et cetera?

Sheb

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2015, 03:03:46 pm »

I would definitely include one of Dawkins' biology book in the science section. They're quite current and eminently readable. The Ancestor's Tale would make sense, or River out of Eden.
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mainiac

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2015, 11:14:41 am »

So far the only concrete advice I've received is from retropunch (regarding the Four Great Books) and mainiac (Regarding the economics section (did not know Capitalism and Freedom was that bad btw, thanks for the heads-up - is Sowell still relevant? I am reading him now, I'd like to know if it is objective. Also, why remove Security Analysis? Redundant, bad or can be better?),

I feel like two books on investing is redundant.

My dislike of Capitalism and Freedom may have been a bit hyperbolic due to my own personal distaste.  The modes of thinking used by Friedman are useful at times but when he talks about politics you'd be just as well listening to a racist old grandpa shouting about those people.  Many of the economic ideas are incomplete in a way that leads to unsound conclusions.  Economics doesn't ever let you include everything due to the complexity of the real world and leaving out the wrong things for the subject of discussion is a big problem.
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Urist_McArathos

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2015, 03:13:17 pm »

+1 for needing a clearly defined goal.  For example, another question that needs to be answered: define "book".  That isn't to be a smartass, but to ask an honest question.  Are we limiting the definition to a clearly defined, cover-to-cover tangible tome?  If not, would e-books on a solid state drive be just as valid?

The reason I ask is because it would theoretically be possible to put an entire encyclopedia or something as a singular reference file, and call it one book.  Maybe it's a bit pedantic, but having a solid frame of understanding what your limits, restrictions, and goals are allow us to narrow down what is and is not truly vital for this project.

Lastly, to me this seems a nigh-impossible project without further defining the "sum of human knowledge".  Even if we eliminate "superfluous" things like cultural works (specific songs and works of literature), or religious, mostly non-philosophical works (I'd argue that the Quran and the Bible would both need to be tossed, as both are far more focused on stories and parables to illustrate a way of life and religious belief than philosophy), there's still a TON of hard "knowledge" that transcends culture.

Biology for example, has so many specific daughter disciplines I doubt you could encapsulate it in the 150 itself, let alone a subset of the whole.  There's vast sums of knowledge of animals, plants, the way the environment works, the nature of biochemistry and evolution, germ theory and more.  Sure, you could get some basic books to cover the broad strokes, but that leads me back to defining the sum of knowledge: are we literally trying to preserve all we know, or just preserve enough to give someone the gist of what we've learned thus far.  The former is a strict definition (as it means the sum of knowledge is literally the addition of every disparate part until we reach the total), while the latter is not and thus needs more definition as well.  How much knowledge on a given subject or category is enough to be "enough"?

I actually worked on a similar thing as a pet project and still am, but it's more along the lines of "What would comprise a library that would preserve the modern world's progress and understanding if civilization had to start again from scratch?"  Basically, I was looking for what books would you lock into a bunker to ensure that in the event of apocalypse the survivors could pick up the pieces (sort of a Hari Seldon's Library for Earth).  I'd offer some of my suggestions, but my list is A) not as seriously researched (it's something I've farted around on in my spare time), and B) not limited in size or scope (I'd gladly include 10,000 works or more if that's what it took).

I do applaud your focus on keeping them "readable", as an Ark of Knowledge is useless if the people who find it can't make heads or tails of it (a textbook on Quantum Physics, while important, would likely be useless without enough other books to teach a lay person all the mathematic and physics principles, in plain english, to understand it in the first place).  Of course, that leads us right back to the first issue again: since easier to read books are less detailed because of the assumption the reader needs to have their hand held, we lose a ton of knowledge by neglecting denser works.
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bahihs

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2015, 09:06:54 pm »

I'm going to update the list soon, but just a few remarks with regards to what has been said so far:

1. Thanks for the all the input!

2. The title of this is misleading (and I now realize that). This list is not a sum of human knowledge, nor really was it ever meant to be. Neither are these books "insurance against the apocalypse", i.e what Urist_McArathos describes. I am not trying to catalogue all traces of human knowledge; there are projects out there that are (Wikipedia for one, I'm sure Google is another) but this is not one of them. This list is by no means comprehensive.

3. What I am trying to do, is compile a finite list of 'books' (we'll get to what this means in a second) for my own use; i.e I actually plan to read these books cover to cover, multiple times. The end goal is to hopefully learn a number of new skills, cultivate the mind, and get exposure to and generate interest in, various disciplines, subjects and cultures. I've failed in that regard, because I've ignored certain important skills which I assumed could not be learned from books (a big thanks, to the people that pointed this out; if you could recommend me a few more books that would go a long way) but I'll fix that.

4. What is a 'book' for the purposes of this list? First, it is paper, tangible and shelvable. Second, it is readable, which means that it can be read front to back without difficulty. The book should, therefore, not be too long (it's difficult to whip out a hard-cover textbook for reading on the subway -where 90% of my reading is done), nor too technical (i.e it should not be written only for professionals or experts), nor poorly-written. I also want to say something about what constitutes "1 book" (although I think I've done this already in the OP), if the book can be found (i.e bought and shelved) as a single, bound volume, I count it as "1". That's why the Complete Works of Shakespeare is counted as 1 book, because a single book with this name exists and can be bought.

5. Why is there such a focus on literature? Because they are easy to read. If I filled this list with textbooks (good or otherwise), I'd never have the motivation to finish it, which defeats the purpose of the entire endeavor. Textbooks are unavoidable for some subjects (the sciences in particular) and so they are included, but I'd like to avoid them if possible. I don't like reading textbooks if I can help it. I also believe a great deal of the human experience (if not knowledge) can be found between the covers of classic novels, removed from the logical rigor of the sciences, the fervor of religion and the obscurity of philosophy. However I have obviously made the mistake of being too eurocentric in my picks and I plan on fixing that. I do not plan on significantly cutting the literature portion, however, for the reasons above.

6. What I am trying to accomplish here is an education, not a summation. By the time one is finished with every book on the list, he/she should have a thorough grounding on almost every aspect of human knowledge, in the same way Abbe Faria did in the Count of Monte Cristo (from which this list was inspired).

I hope that clears up some issues.
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Urist_McArathos

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2015, 09:46:26 pm »

Very good follow-up post.  It definitely explains the preponderance of works of literature, and what you hope to do with this list and why you're making it.  I have two suggestions you might be interested in, given your response.

Teaming With Microbes is a book I picked up to help me with learning how to start an organic garden.  It's an excellent primer on soil health and soil biology, both of which are very useful to learn if you ever plan on starting a garden or caring for a lawn.

Worldbuilding is a book about science fiction writing, specifically how to build believable extraterrestrial worlds for writing.  Although it may not sound too important, it also covers, in easy to understand writing, the basics of many things about planets and stars and how they interact.  You'll wind up learning a lot about orbits, moons, how the light from stars could affect life on a given planet, planetary weather, and more.  Included are the mathematic formulas you'll need to do to figure out the way all the physical factors interact as well, along with excellent easy-to-understand instructions on what they mean and how to use them.  If you've ever found yourself staring at the night sky and wondering what it would be like to live on other planets, or what different star systems might be like if you were there to observe them, this book will help you visualize the possiblities in incredible ways.  Plus, with space travel and astrophysics being such hugely important parts of modern and future human development and technology, it will help you understand them far better by letting you more easily think like a physicist about space.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 09:50:43 pm by Urist_McArathos »
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bahihs

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2015, 11:10:20 am »

Thanks for the recommendations Uris_McArathos, "Worldbuilding" in particular is an excellent addition to the Astronomy section and is presented in a fascinating context (I will have to take your word on its scientific rigor, which I assume is high since the author is a geologist and from your description). Reading the reviews for the other book, I find that there is some criticism regarding the discussion of mycorrhizal fungi in the second half of the book. Is this concrete or can it be ignored?

I've updated the list, but there are still other things to add in and books to move around. Stay tuned and continue to recommend.
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Urist_McArathos

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2015, 04:02:56 pm »

Thanks for the recommendations Uris_McArathos, "Worldbuilding" in particular is an excellent addition to the Astronomy section and is presented in a fascinating context (I will have to take your word on its scientific rigor, which I assume is high since the author is a geologist and from your description). Reading the reviews for the other book, I find that there is some criticism regarding the discussion of mycorrhizal fungi in the second half of the book. Is this concrete or can it be ignored?

I've updated the list, but there are still other things to add in and books to move around. Stay tuned and continue to recommend.

I honestly don't think it's concrete; the book has a foreword from Dr. Elaine Ignham, one of the most well respected academics on soil microbiology, and in it she commends the two of them for presenting the very things she and her more academically rigorous colleagues have spent years laboriously staring at dirt under microscopes to learn, and presenting it in a fun and enjoyable overview.

I can only speculate about some of the criticisms, but it's worth noting the biggest opponents to this sort of view of soil life are major fertilizer and pesticide manufacturers like Monsanto.  Dr. Ingham's work, which corroborates what these two learned from years of independent study and research, basically says that all the chemicals we buy and use to maintain our lawns and crops are devastating to soil life and are highly toxic to the organisms we NEED in a healthy soil for plants to thrive.  This is a multi-billion dollar industry we're talking about, and their response is to completely shut it down, saving chemicals and toxins for extreme, last resort cases of parasite or fungal infestations.  I personally have seen tremendously improved results utilizing their lessons and methods, and fellow organic growers on a gardening forum I frequent all swear by the positive results they've seen from incorporating myco fungi into their gardens.  So all I can say is it sure doesn't SEEM like the mycorrhizal fungi bit is off base.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 04:09:28 pm by Urist_McArathos »
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Ghills

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2015, 12:26:02 pm »

If you want to understand the current state of human knowledge, especially politics and economics, studying the other major economic theory is essential. Keynes/Friedman have some gaping holes in their economic theories that Mises and Hayek address, along with providing historical and social context.  Whether a person agrees or disagrees I don't think they can call themselves economically literate until they're read some Austrian economics as well as some Keynesian/Friedman papers.

Either of these 2 books is a good starting point:
The Road to Serfdom https://mises.org/library/road-serfdom-0 / http://www.amazon.com/Road-Serfdom-Documents---Definitive-Collected/dp/0226320553/

or

Human Action https://mises.org/library/human-action-0 digital / http://store.mises.org/Human-Action-The-Scholars-Edition-P119.aspx physical / www.amazon.com/Human-Action-Ludwig-Von-Mises/dp/1614273545/ random Amazon link

Both can be read for free digitally from the Mises Institute, but can also be ordered if you really want a physical copy.

While I agree that literature has a lot of important things to teach about human nature, so much of literature covers the same ground. Human nature really doesn't change that much, just the cultural trappings.  The current list of literature looks kind of redundant, especially considering the philosophy books - Eurocentric and more like you've been picking interesting books from top 100 lists instead of trying to aim your literature picks to cover a broad range of cultures. 

Definitely need some more world history in there also.  History/culture influences literature so strongly that without understanding it you really can't read the literature (ex, Isaiah can be nigh incomprehensible without accompanying commentary). 

To cover the history of recording history (and other knowledge), try 40 Centuries of Ink http://www.amazon.com/Forty-Centuries-Ink-David-Carvalho/dp/8132049101/ and also free digitally at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1483 or http://www.djmcadam.com/forty-centuries-ink.html.

I find it a bit odd that a Dwarf Fortress player and modern gamer is avoiding digital books, but to each their own.   If you don't mind, can you share why you avoid digital books?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 12:45:59 pm by Ghills »
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bahihs

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2015, 12:12:06 pm »

If you want to understand the current state of human knowledge, especially politics and economics, studying the other major economic theory is essential. Keynes/Friedman have some gaping holes in their economic theories that Mises and Hayek address, along with providing historical and social context.  Whether a person agrees or disagrees I don't think they can call themselves economically literate until they're read some Austrian economics as well as some Keynesian/Friedman papers.

Either of these 2 books is a good starting point:
The Road to Serfdom https://mises.org/library/road-serfdom-0 / http://www.amazon.com/Road-Serfdom-Documents---Definitive-Collected/dp/0226320553/

or

Human Action https://mises.org/library/human-action-0 digital / http://store.mises.org/Human-Action-The-Scholars-Edition-P119.aspx physical / www.amazon.com/Human-Action-Ludwig-Von-Mises/dp/1614273545/ random Amazon link

Both can be read for free digitally from the Mises Institute, but can also be ordered if you really want a physical copy.

While I agree that literature has a lot of important things to teach about human nature, so much of literature covers the same ground. Human nature really doesn't change that much, just the cultural trappings.  The current list of literature looks kind of redundant, especially considering the philosophy books - Eurocentric and more like you've been picking interesting books from top 100 lists instead of trying to aim your literature picks to cover a broad range of cultures. 

Definitely need some more world history in there also.  History/culture influences literature so strongly that without understanding it you really can't read the literature (ex, Isaiah can be nigh incomprehensible without accompanying commentary). 

To cover the history of recording history (and other knowledge), try 40 Centuries of Ink http://www.amazon.com/Forty-Centuries-Ink-David-Carvalho/dp/8132049101/ and also free digitally at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1483 or http://www.djmcadam.com/forty-centuries-ink.html.

I find it a bit odd that a Dwarf Fortress player and modern gamer is avoiding digital books, but to each their own.   If you don't mind, can you share why you avoid digital books?

Thanks very much for your suggestions Ghills. I will take a look at those books when I have time, and add them if they are worthy. Another reason for the literature bubble is to get exposure to various styles of writing and hopefully improve my own, so while, variety of subject matter may be sparse, writing style (hopefully) is not.

I agree regarding world history and economics, admittedly I know very little about these subjects and it is reflected in the list, I am currently searching for some good world history books, but most are textbook-level and others, while scholarly, are dry. The search continues.

I am very much not against digital books. I am just a sucker for nostalgia. For me, no electronic gadget can replace the smell and feel of old paper (as when I first laid my hands on a 'Magic School Bus' book in the 1st grade). Also, paper books are easier to annotate than digital ones (though recently it has become a lot easier, with being able to highlight and leave notes that can be accessed separately, on google books for example) Already I'm building a digital version of this list, compiling whichever books I can find on the internet. The physical copies are the end goal however and (once I have the money and space) I will begin buying them. So feel free to suggest or link digital copies.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 12:14:06 pm by bahihs »
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Ghills

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2015, 11:00:29 pm »

If you want to understand the current state of human knowledge, especially politics and economics, studying the other major economic theory is essential. Keynes/Friedman have some gaping holes in their economic theories that Mises and Hayek address, along with providing historical and social context.  Whether a person agrees or disagrees I don't think they can call themselves economically literate until they're read some Austrian economics as well as some Keynesian/Friedman papers.

Either of these 2 books is a good starting point:
The Road to Serfdom https://mises.org/library/road-serfdom-0 / http://www.amazon.com/Road-Serfdom-Documents---Definitive-Collected/dp/0226320553/

or

Human Action https://mises.org/library/human-action-0 digital / http://store.mises.org/Human-Action-The-Scholars-Edition-P119.aspx physical / www.amazon.com/Human-Action-Ludwig-Von-Mises/dp/1614273545/ random Amazon link

Both can be read for free digitally from the Mises Institute, but can also be ordered if you really want a physical copy.

While I agree that literature has a lot of important things to teach about human nature, so much of literature covers the same ground. Human nature really doesn't change that much, just the cultural trappings.  The current list of literature looks kind of redundant, especially considering the philosophy books - Eurocentric and more like you've been picking interesting books from top 100 lists instead of trying to aim your literature picks to cover a broad range of cultures. 

Definitely need some more world history in there also.  History/culture influences literature so strongly that without understanding it you really can't read the literature (ex, Isaiah can be nigh incomprehensible without accompanying commentary). 

To cover the history of recording history (and other knowledge), try 40 Centuries of Ink http://www.amazon.com/Forty-Centuries-Ink-David-Carvalho/dp/8132049101/ and also free digitally at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1483 or http://www.djmcadam.com/forty-centuries-ink.html.

I find it a bit odd that a Dwarf Fortress player and modern gamer is avoiding digital books, but to each their own.   If you don't mind, can you share why you avoid digital books?

Thanks very much for your suggestions Ghills. I will take a look at those books when I have time, and add them if they are worthy. Another reason for the literature bubble is to get exposure to various styles of writing and hopefully improve my own, so while, variety of subject matter may be sparse, writing style (hopefully) is not.

I agree regarding world history and economics, admittedly I know very little about these subjects and it is reflected in the list, I am currently searching for some good world history books, but most are textbook-level and others, while scholarly, are dry. The search continues.

I am very much not against digital books. I am just a sucker for nostalgia. For me, no electronic gadget can replace the smell and feel of old paper (as when I first laid my hands on a 'Magic School Bus' book in the 1st grade). Also, paper books are easier to annotate than digital ones (though recently it has become a lot easier, with being able to highlight and leave notes that can be accessed separately, on google books for example) Already I'm building a digital version of this list, compiling whichever books I can find on the internet. The physical copies are the end goal however and (once I have the money and space) I will begin buying them. So feel free to suggest or link digital copies.

Ah, OK.   I love physical books too, but space constraints mean that I tend to buy digital first.  If I really love a book I'll get a physical copy.

There are very few good world history books - you'll probably have to piece together regional history works and good historical novels or something similar.  It's simply too broad a topic to be handled well outside of a textbook, I think.
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bahihs

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2015, 03:47:26 pm »

I've been looking at an abridged version of 'History of Civilizations' (2 vol.) it seems quite good. Also 'Decline of the West' (which I've heard is controversial, but nevertheless seems to be good). Still searching though.
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Kot

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2015, 12:54:18 pm »

Honestly, I consider that this is a lost cause.
150 books could be arguably enough to contain all human knowledge in 1850s, if those were written specifically for this purpose and were really fat books.
After over 150 years during which humanity advanced more than during previous thousands of years, this doesn't seem to be a case anymore. Of course if you could write those books, it could be doable again, of course as long as you didin't mind hauling biggest, baddest books ever created or using hundreds of terrabytes of plain text.
Also, Civil War Stories? Really? This list just can't get more America centered.
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bahihs

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Re: 150 books: A sum of human knowledge
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2015, 11:49:59 am »

Honestly, I consider that this is a lost cause.
150 books could be arguably enough to contain all human knowledge in 1850s, if those were written specifically for this purpose and were really fat books.
After over 150 years during which humanity advanced more than during previous thousands of years, this doesn't seem to be a case anymore. Of course if you could write those books, it could be doable again, of course as long as you didin't mind hauling biggest, baddest books ever created or using hundreds of terrabytes of plain text.
Also, Civil War Stories? Really? This list just can't get more America centered.

Thanks for your comments.

The list has been considerably updated since I originally posted it, among the several books removed, you'll be happy to know 'Civil War Stories' was one of them. I haven't yet posted the updated list, as it isn't quite finished (the philosophy section is getting a major overhaul right now). You should read my follow-up post to Urist McArathos above, which explains what I am actually trying to do (and how the title is just clickbait :P) and why, therefore, it is not a lost cause.

I also don't see the list as 'America centered' -occidental and eurocentric, yes, but there aren't that many books on the list about America. Finally, the title is only a hyperbole, 'terabytes of text' is not what I'm aiming for. I think I'll update the OP (and perhaps even the title) to avoid this reaction.

Thanks again, and if you have any recommendations please post them and I'll check them out. 
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