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Author Topic: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?  (Read 3806 times)

VerdantSF

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Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« on: June 29, 2015, 03:40:31 pm »

I settled on a temperate warm savanna. Trees were relatively sparse in the first 2 years, but then all of a sudden, trees started to crop up everywhere! Is it possible for a biome to shift over time?

Spoiler: A savanna? (click to show/hide)

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2015, 03:56:12 pm »

No. 

That said, sparseness of trees doesn't work via making trees stop growing when it hits the same density of trees you started with, it just makes saplings spawn less frequently.  The saplings that started on the map when you embarked just took 2 years to reach maturity, and are now full-grown trees.  If you don't cut them down or trample the saplings or otherwise impede their growth, they'll eventually form a solid wall of trees. 

So stop being a sissy elf and murder some trees!
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NJW2000

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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2015, 04:17:12 pm »

Either the elves did it, or doing the elves in will fix it. Rule of thumb with trees.
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Dunamisdeos

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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2015, 07:45:27 pm »

Chop down everything. The elves will sort out their own.
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Robsoie

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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2015, 08:41:59 pm »

From playing, it looks to me that it's not a Savanna only problem, in df2014 trees simply grow fully too fast and if you don't regularly cut as much as you can, in a few years you always end impenetrable jungles, very likely impacting negatively your game speed too.

Tough i have not tried desert biome, i wonder if the problem can still happen there if you left trees unchecked.

There was a bug report about it that Toady marked as fixed for 40.05 :
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7581

I don't even want to imagine how it was in 40.04 if what i see now is supposed to be working as intended :D
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2015, 08:48:46 pm »

This has always been a thing, it's just that trees are bigger, now. 

Remember how passages in the caverns, (which are fairly sparse in trees initially, as well,) could easily be clogged by cavern trees even before they were giant cone-tops? 

Again, the "sparse" tree setting only affects initial tree density and sapling spawn rate.  The only limit to total trees is how much soil- or mud-covered floor space you have. 
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Bearskie

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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2015, 10:28:45 pm »

Probally unrelated, but one of my embarks had seasons in which the grass would turn from a wilted golden field (in summer/autumn) to rolling green hills in the spring.

NW_Kohaku

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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2015, 10:57:09 pm »

Probally unrelated, but one of my embarks had seasons in which the grass would turn from a wilted golden field (in summer/autumn) to rolling green hills in the spring.

That is a feature of most "hot" biomes, which generally means tropical. 
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Naryar

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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2015, 04:18:42 am »

Yup, biome only means the initial amount of trees. Try digging in soil layers in a desert biome and let stuff grow here. It won't be desertic anymore.

It's nothing new. Must have been here since DF2010 at least.

Vorox

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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2015, 06:28:14 am »

Is there any way to reduce tree growth speed in the raws?
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TheBrisbyMouse

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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2015, 07:01:55 am »

Is there any way to reduce tree growth speed in the raws?
You don't need the raws. Just use magma.
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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2015, 11:09:10 am »

From playing, it looks to me that it's not a Savanna only problem, in df2014 trees simply grow fully too fast and if you don't regularly cut as much as you can, in a few years you always end impenetrable jungles, very likely impacting negatively your game speed too.

Tough i have not tried desert biome, i wonder if the problem can still happen there if you left trees unchecked.

There was a bug report about it that Toady marked as fixed for 40.05 :
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=7581

I don't even want to imagine how it was in 40.04 if what i see now is supposed to be working as intended :D

If I remember correctly, in 40.04 trees reached maturity after only one season, or something crazy like that.  In general, Toady marking something as fixed doesn't mean that it works perfectly, just that its not ridiculously broken...

I often embark on biomes with lots of trees, and I haven't noticed the trees getting thicker in regions where I don't cut them down.  Once they reach a spacing of about 4 tiles between them, no more appear to grow.  I doubt this is an accident, as this is the spacing needed to allow wagons to pass through.  I also haven't noticed my FPS suffering badly, and my computer is pretty slow.

In other words, while it's of course not realistic, I don't think there's any harm to letting trees grow to maximum density, other than providing a route for invaders to climb over your walls, and the crashes which occur if they grow on top of your constructions. 

If you are worried about these issues, you can periodically designate unpaved roads in regions where you don't want trees, and a dwarf will very quickly remove all saplings (and other plants) from these areas.  If you want to make this solution permanent, you can make a paved road, which can be made of wood, which you must have in excess if you are complaining about trees.  Paved roads next to any above ground constructions is probably a good idea to avoid tree-related crashes.

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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2015, 02:12:22 pm »

Paved roads next to any above ground constructions is probably a good idea to avoid tree-related crashes.
Ursula K. Le Guin's The Direction of the Road shows that paved roads might actually encourage tree-related crashes.
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Albedo

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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2015, 05:47:05 pm »

LeGuin is an elf sympathizer, that's clear.

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Button

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Re: Treesplosion, a biome shifting over time?
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2015, 11:06:35 am »

Is there any way to reduce tree growth speed in the raws?

You might try increasing [TRUNK_PERIOD] and/or [TRUNK_WIDTH_PERIOD]. They'll certainly slow tree growth after it's done being a sapling, but I'm not sure if they'll slow sapling-to-tree growth.

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