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Author Topic: Goblin mod in development  (Read 2014 times)

Krutzelpuntz

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Goblin mod in development
« on: June 16, 2015, 04:11:50 pm »

I've been brewing on the thought of making a goblin mod for some time now, and it is now time to throw it out there.

I want the goblins to be the only playable race, which (I think) will allow me to make the goblin civilization much more unique, as that is what I see the current goblin mods lack.

Now, I have made myself some thoughts, but to kick-start this, I'd really like to get some suggestions!
 - What features would you like to see, playing as the goblins?
 - What do you think would make them more unique?
 - Any other mods, with features you'd love to see more of?
 - Anything at all..?

All suggestions are very welcome, along with criticism, comments and hopefully a bit approval, once in a while ;)

This post will develop, as development develops.

Krutzelpuntz
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 04:22:30 am by Krutzelpuntz »
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StagnantSoul

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Re: Goblin mod in development
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2015, 09:32:33 pm »

Their version of the hammerer use a whip.

Another civilization that's also baby snatchers (to act as an ally).

Everyone have naturally good social skills.

Renamings of all the nobles and such.

A few castes of goblins with things like tusks or a natural skill in something.

A couple new weapons only they can use, like throwing axes or something.

Non-goblin related things: A plant that can't be brewed or processed, like Valley Herb, that can be turned into clothes even more expensive than a GCS's silk, and only grows in evil and savage dry areas. Maybe have it, through a reaction, be able to be made into a whip.

A tree that has "fruit of flesh" or something like that.
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Krutzelpuntz

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Re: Goblin mod in development
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2015, 03:51:37 am »

Quote from: StagnantSoul
Their version of the hammerer use a whip.
Yes, I call him the scourge.
Quote from: StagnantSoul
Another civilization that's also baby snatchers (to act as an ally).
Interesting.. I have been thinking how the trolls would work as a civ, but I am yet to like the idea...
I also never liked the idea of original civs to babysnatch, like the elves, which I see other mods did.
Why'd the arrogant elves take an evil goblin baby?
Quote from: StagnantSoul
Everyone have naturally good social skills.
Social?! Why? I thought of improving the warlike skill-learn-rates, maybe only on the male goblins.
Don't get me wrong, but it could be cool to have a difference between the genders.
Female goblins could have a bonus on fishing, butchering, ect.
Quote from: StagnantSoul
Renamings of all the nobles and such.
I have a plan for those.
Spoiler: Goblin nobles (click to show/hide)
Quote from: StagnantSoul
A few castes of goblins with things like tusks or a natural skill in something.
Also interesting. Now tusks might be a bit too off the original goblin feel, which I would like to avoid butchering.. Too much..
Maybe adding clans, with different skill sets.
Quote from: StagnantSoul
A couple new weapons only they can use, like throwing axes or something.
Not bad. I thought they would have "easy to make" weaponry,
and it would be encouraged to arm most goblins, even the "civilians"(lol, civilian goblin), to act as a militia.
Quote from: StagnantSoul
Non-goblin related things: A plant that can't be brewed or processed, like Valley Herb, that can be turned into clothes even more expensive than a GCS's silk, and only grows in evil and savage dry areas. Maybe have it, through a reaction, be able to be made into a whip.
Hmm... Yes, more flora unique to the goblins, would be nice. I'd like the goblins to be primitive, and value crafts much less than dwarves.
I have also been thinking of adding goblin drinks, so they don't have to live from water, which give bad thoughts, if not from a well.
Quote from: StagnantSoul
A tree that has "fruit of flesh" or something like that.
Honestly, a bit crazy. I might get inspired though  :P

Thank you!! Much appreciated!

Krutzel. :o

PS. Added future visions and thoughts to OP
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 04:25:52 am by Krutzelpuntz »
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bluwolfie

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Re: Goblin mod in development
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2015, 03:57:16 pm »

I think the Goblins should have higher than average agility, because they are small and frail they must be quick to survive. Also, ambush focused skills/tactics.

Dodge skill, Ambush skill, archery and speed.
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Chevaleresse

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Re: Goblin mod in development
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2015, 04:25:17 am »

a big step would be making them [BONECARN], though this often ends up killing them in worldgen. you could also add different castes and fold trolls into the main goblin species, with bigger, meaner bugbears and more intelligent but less numerous hobgoblins.
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bluwolfie

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Re: Goblin mod in development
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2015, 04:41:11 am »

Also I always found it odd that Dwarves and Goblins are the same size.. I always imagine Goblins as 2-3 feet tall and dwarves as more like 3-4 feet.
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AceSV

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Re: Goblin mod in development
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2015, 07:11:47 am »

Also I always found it odd that Dwarves and Goblins are the same size.. I always imagine Goblins as 2-3 feet tall and dwarves as more like 3-4 feet.

Gygax ruined goblins.  When I was growing up, "goblins" came in all sizes, from little garden gnomes to orc or ogre sized.  But as Warcraft and other D&D spin-off video games became more popular, they settled into the tiny annoying creatures. 

a big step would be making them [BONECARN], though this often ends up killing them in worldgen. you could also add different castes and fold trolls into the main goblin species, with bigger, meaner bugbears and more intelligent but less numerous hobgoblins.

I have carnivore races (lizard men and lion men) in my game with no crops, and they usually do well.  The difference between my races and vanilla goblins is that mine have USE_ANY_PET_RACE while goblins have CAVE_ANIMALS and EVIL_ANIMALS.  So until a goblin civ breaches a cavern or successfully embarks on an evil biome, they've got no animals to eat. 
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vjmdhzgr

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Re: Goblin mod in development
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2015, 10:20:25 am »

Also I always found it odd that Dwarves and Goblins are the same size.. I always imagine Goblins as 2-3 feet tall and dwarves as more like 3-4 feet.
I think the best way to imagine Dwarf Fortress goblins is as Lord of the Rings goblins, which is to say orcs, but generally referring to the smaller weaker ones. Goblins are normally led by some really powerful demon, they're smaller than humans, but the same size as dwarves, they live in towers in areas filled with pits and with all other life killed, and there's probably some more similarities I can't think of right now.
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Dirst

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Re: Goblin mod in development
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2015, 11:42:25 am »

Also I always found it odd that Dwarves and Goblins are the same size.. I always imagine Goblins as 2-3 feet tall and dwarves as more like 3-4 feet.
I think the best way to imagine Dwarf Fortress goblins is as Lord of the Rings goblins, which is to say orcs, but generally referring to the smaller weaker ones. Goblins are normally led by some really powerful demon, they're smaller than humans, but the same size as dwarves, they live in towers in areas filled with pits and with all other life killed, and there's probably some more similarities I can't think of right now.
One of the recurring bits in fiction is that goblins vary a lot more than humans do (and humans vary a lot more than dwarves).  This isn't reflected in the raws at the moment, where every civilized creature has similar variability such as heights from 75% to 125% the norm.

If the game is smart enough to put the big specimens in physical roles, high variability can make a goblin civ both more unique and more effective.  I forget if the bug about weapon sizes was ever resolved (that a weapon's size is compared to the average creature size rather than the individual's size), but if it was you can make some biggish weapons that will lead naturally to "brute squads."
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bluwolfie

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Re: Goblin mod in development
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2015, 07:09:53 pm »

Also I always found it odd that Dwarves and Goblins are the same size.. I always imagine Goblins as 2-3 feet tall and dwarves as more like 3-4 feet.
I think the best way to imagine Dwarf Fortress goblins is as Lord of the Rings goblins, which is to say orcs, but generally referring to the smaller weaker ones. Goblins are normally led by some really powerful demon, they're smaller than humans, but the same size as dwarves, they live in towers in areas filled with pits and with all other life killed, and there's probably some more similarities I can't think of right now.
One of the recurring bits in fiction is that goblins vary a lot more than humans do (and humans vary a lot more than dwarves).  This isn't reflected in the raws at the moment, where every civilized creature has similar variability such as heights from 75% to 125% the norm.

If the game is smart enough to put the big specimens in physical roles, high variability can make a goblin civ both more unique and more effective.  I forget if the bug about weapon sizes was ever resolved (that a weapon's size is compared to the average creature size rather than the individual's size), but if it was you can make some biggish weapons that will lead naturally to "brute squads."

Yeah exactly, I always thought of Ogres, Orcs and Goblins to all be offshoots of the same race/share a common ancestor. With the Goblins being the smallest..

On the size point I guess that's where castes come in until/unless toady comes up with a better way to do it.


Also I always found it odd that Dwarves and Goblins are the same size.. I always imagine Goblins as 2-3 feet tall and dwarves as more like 3-4 feet.

Gygax ruined goblins.  When I was growing up, "goblins" came in all sizes, from little garden gnomes to orc or ogre sized.  But as Warcraft and other D&D spin-off video games became more popular, they settled into the tiny annoying creatures. 

Huh, I never thought of it that way. I guess I always thought of Goblins as small regardless of where they come from, and always thought of them as smaller than Dwarves.
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Dirst

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Re: Goblin mod in development
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2015, 09:06:43 pm »

Search for HEIGHT in the creature_standard.txt file to see how variability is declared in the raws.  You could just use a wider set of numbers for height and broadness.  At present the two rolls are completely independent of one another, so if you want to enforce any tendencies it would need to be through castes.

Edit: FYI if you dig into the mythical origins of dwarves, there was no indication that they were short.  The term dwarf was a rough translation of "minor god" (of crafting) which somehow turned "minor" into "small".  Most of the modern tropes were already in place at the time that Tolkein and Lewis wrote their fantasy novels (well before Gygax), though their differences indicate that the issue of female dwarves was not yet settled.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2015, 09:13:45 pm by Dirst »
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AceSV

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Re: Goblin mod in development
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2015, 11:33:41 pm »

Edit: FYI if you dig into the mythical origins of dwarves, there was no indication that they were short.  The term dwarf was a rough translation of "minor god" (of crafting) which somehow turned "minor" into "small".  Most of the modern tropes were already in place at the time that Tolkein and Lewis wrote their fantasy novels (well before Gygax), though their differences indicate that the issue of female dwarves was not yet settled.

^Yes, actually almost all pagan critters and characters were made smaller and uglier during the reign of Christianity to try to stop people from thinking that Paganism was cool.  Thus mythology became fair tale became children's stories.  I've heard that Leprechauns were supposedly once human sized or even ogre sized and represented god or angel like creatures that were shrunken down and forced into hiding by the power of Christianity. 

In fact the Norse Dvergar are surprisingly metal.  The Norse likened them to corpses, living underground, they had deathly pale skin and eyes like glowing coals and could stand motionless for days until something grabbed their attention.  To a modern reader, they would resemble vampires more than dwarves.  But the Dvergar were also skilled craftsdwarves, forging Thor's hammer Mjollnir and other artifacts for the Aesir.  When the gods couldn't build a chain strong enough to bind Fenrir, they barted with the Dvergar for the unbreakable ribbon Gleipnir, made of the sound of a cat's feet, the beard of a woman, the roots of a mountain, the sinews of a bear, the breath of fish and the spittle of a bird. 

Britain was home to another sinister species of dwarf, known as the Redcap, Powrie or Dunter.  Redcaps murder travels and die their hats red with blood.  They have to keep this up, for if their hats dry out, the Redcap dies.  Redcaps are fleet of foot, and are famous for wearing iron shoes and wielding pikes as their weapon of choice. 

The mythical roots of Goblins, Orcs and Ogres are less specific.  The word for goblin or gobelin is derived from the Greek creature Kobalos, which is also the root for kobolds.  I've never read an authentic tale of Kobaloi, but they're described as mischief makers, rogues and jokers, but potentially vicious.  I think one hangs out with Dionysus, the party god.  One account I've heard describes the Kobaloi as insubstantial spirits rather than physical entities.  Possibly similar to European trickster spirits like the Brownie, Puck, Pixie, Bogart and yes, the Kobold.  Speaking of Kobolds, their fairy tales make them sound like a cross between dwarf and goblin.  I used to think of Kobolds as bad dwarves, rather than rats or lizards or whatever, but that's probably Castle of the Winds' doing. 

"Orc" was an Old English abbreviation of Orcus, an underworld god similar to Hades or Hel.  The word became unspecific as the god's cult died out, like saying "monster" or "demon", until Tolkien used the word in his books.  "Ogre" comes from medieval French, and is also possibly related to Orcus, or to the "Giants" "Jotuns" "Iotuns" "Ettins" or to "Orpheus" or "Og" or any number of things.  Ogres are usually associated with cannibalism. 

The Norse version of Ogres, the Troll, was a lot more interesting before Gygax and Tolkien touched them.  Trolls were usually largely built, but not necessary ugly or stupid.  Trolls were also associated with magic, in fact the modern Swedish word for wizard or magician is trollkarl.  Troll-women were also prevalent in stories and kennings.  Kormak uses the kenning "troll-woman's fair breeze" to mean "mind".  I've never understood the relation between Trolls and Jotnar, Jotuns.  The Jotnar are more like demons or even gods in their own right.  Some take the form of hideous monsters, while others (Gerd) are wildly attractive and intermarry with the gods.  They are called "giants" though their size is never described nor is it particularly important to any of the myths. 

This may not resonate with everyone, but there a lot of translations for Eastern mythology describe miscellaneous creatures as "goblins" and "ogres".  Japanese Oni have had a strong impact on the appearance of "ogres" and some types of Tengu are goblin-like.  In China, "ogres" work as part of the underworld bureaucracy, using their fearful presence to keep misbehaving ghosts or goblins in line.  You see this pop up in anime occasionally, like Dragon Ball Z and Yu Yu Hakusho. 

Hinduism is widely believed to be related to European mythology in general, especially Norse mythology, with the Hindu demons "Asura" representing the Norse "Aesir" and the Norse rival gods "Vanir" representing the Hindu gods, "Devas" or "Vedic" gods.  Hindu epics are filled with a lot of cool creatures that would fit in well with Gygaxian fantasy gaming, the flying poisonous cannibals, Rakshasa, the forest dwelling monkey men, Vanara, the sky-dwelling musicians, Gandharva, the snake bodied Naga, and the nature spirit "fairies", Yaksha.  In Thailand, the Yaksha has a demon/ogre/goblin like appearance and are placed around temples as guardians.  In India, the king of the Yaksha, Kubera, was a dwarf who lived in a mountain and guarded treasure (I think, it's been a while since I've read the Ramayana and there's more than one translation), which might be linked to the various earth spirits in Europe. 

I'm rambling now.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that mythology is cool. 

If you're interested in some role reversal, you could cast dwarves as the bad guys, as Dvergar, Powries and Kobolds(no, that's a thing, dangit!), while the Goblins are Robin Hood trickster rogues getting the best of them. 
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Featheredragon

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Re: Goblin mod in development
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2015, 06:55:53 pm »

Make their only prossesed food pickles. Because pathfinder. Dwarfs would approve of gobbos eating minced elf liver pickles.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 06:58:09 pm by Featheredragon »
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