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[micelus]

Good to see that you address all of my arguments, my fear came from the fact that others have avoided inconvenient arguments in the past. I will resume:

Change, I must agree this can be a good thing, sometimes necessary, but sometimes leading to a worse situation. We stopped the flood because of the potentially devastating effect of a large quantity of water in a region that require none to exist, along with the sunlight starvation that would occur to the population. The flood was seem as controversial, it killed innocents, but was also a good occasion for progress. War does not bring progress on it's own. Perhaps new and better weapons are devised, but they so not serve the population. Rather, they only allow for more to be killed by both sides. Centralization is a debatable thing. Of course a centralized power is much stronger and can achieve much more, but it is also so much easier to corrupt, to lead to tyranny, I only support centralization when there are mechanisms to weed out the corruption and tyrants.

Conflict on it's own is not a bad thing, it sometimes lead to great innovations. My problem with your means is that you bring it in ways that do not benefit anyone, and cause needless harm, leading to my next point.

Yes, I do believe war is the most cruel form of conflict. I do not see a group of assassins murdering anyone they feel like killing as a form of conflict. There is indeed a great distinction between your aspect and senseless slaughter, distinction I would hope to see you put more emphasis on. I must agree that slaves fighting each other for small privileges is a cruel fate, but unlike war, it does not necessarily imply senseless slaughter.

((Yeah, what I meant is that mavnon pretend to be tolerant by not excluding Aag people only to distract from the fact that he(or she?) is causing a slaughter by sending the new kingdom against their nation at the same time. I'll wait for your response on this for my rebuttal))

Of couse, the winner benefits, but you are not allowing equal forces to compete, you claim you would have supported the humans had they won against the clan rilem, but we both know it would've required a miracle to allow a few disorganized tribes to win against an organized empire. The new kingdom is the same, a massive kingdom bullying smaller nations. You only side with improvement when you are the one who benefit from it.

Opposing the cruelty of gods through revolution is indeed a cause I would sympathize with, as evidenced by my multiple attempts at opening a peaceful dialogue with the new kingdom and my earlier opposition to their direct extermination. Only we both know that this is not what is truly happening. We all know that this is all a puppet show, the king is a marionette, the people are manipulated. They are directly working for you, while claiming they are against you. The fact that the only civilizations they are at peace with are those under you and your ally's control is yet another proof of this scheme. You fool no one there.

Your turn. I believe you can still be a benevolent being for these worlds, but that you are wrong with your means. I would not be debating you if I saw you as a lost cause, but I can still not see the manipulation of the new kingdom as anything else than a cruel and selfish act. Not the fact that you rule them, but the fact that you lie to them, make them believe they are fighting the same evil you sadly represent today.

"From your point of view, the process of war and its consequences is horrid and without reason. To me, it is an artform. The marching of men in formation, fighting for causes close to their heart or far from it, ready to achieve their goals knowing full well they may die. I cannot expect you...to understand why I find war so thrilling but in any case, that is not the point. War leads to innovation; it forces the combatants to innovate and change so that they may change and take victory. The humans now under Clan Rilem for example stood no chance at all; I agree. However, they had a chance to improve. True, by themselves they could not possibly do a thing, but had their compatriots aided them they could have fought back the invasion and humbled the Clan. They did not and subsequently, their descendants are now Rilem in body and soul."

"As for centralisation....it is a very debatable point, one I hope to test with my creations. Notice that the Clan is centralised under one rule and the Orcs are scattered as many tribes. Nothing is without purpose, brother."

"And my deities of twin-soul, I benefit in every situation. Clan Rilem's victory resulted in greater worship towards me in thanks and praise. A human victory would have resulted in a new pool of champions from which I could have extracted agents. Dear Illyria is one such example and she has served me well since."

"As for the New Kingdom...."Mavnon smiled as if thinking of a good joke, "....what would you say if all implications I had ever made towards controlling the Kingdom were just that, implications? Have you once asked the great lord that rules there that I, Mavnon, is his puppetmaster, his patron and creator? He would scoff at such notions and dismiss you. Of course, you would expect that from me. A lesson Lithus: the best lie is an implication of truth that while plausible, is still just an implication. It is far more believable than blatant ones, true? The obelisk keeper of yours will surely remember my old stories as a winged messenger who saved the worlds?"

"...forgive me for intruding, Mavnon...but I must ask...why do you find a centralisation of power...to be a good thing...?...does that not result in reduced competition...?...Conflict turned petty, between neighboring nobles for wealth...rather than cultural arms races between neighboring countries..."

"...perhaps I simply see Conflict differently...slavery does not seem to be conflict...surely, there is...but only during rebellions...assassins kill, but it is one-sided...it does not seem very much like conflict...unless there were some other society dedicated to combating them..."

"...do not misunderstand, Mavnon...I would rather remain on good terms with you...but the Aag are trading partners of my Saplings...and Liuthus, a member of my pantheon...I will not ask you to end the war...I will simply ask you not to hold it against me...when I side with your foe...I prefer to keep my word...and part of that means supporting Liuthus in this time of trouble...and remember...a prolonged war benefits no one...not even the winners...in any case, however...I will ask that we might remain friends...if I might be allowed to consider you that...even if we must be at odds...if that is alright...with you, of course...?"

"No intrusion at all friend. Your thoughts are as important as any other."

"Centralisation...not inherently a good thing but it can lead to goodness. I am testing that as we speak with the Clan. As for the hypothetical backstabbing slave society ruled by assassins...I agree. Pointless...unless there were another society to counterbalance them..." Mavnon seems to realise a hidden truth of the universe, as if she had experienced godly enlightenment. "Your wisdom is as always, warmly welcomed. Suffice to say, you are completely right."

"As for war...tell me brother, is a lie unspoken but implied stronger than a lie freely made? The answer to that riddle well you just how much control I have over this war...But I do wish to remain on friendly terms with you regardless, yes."

[Rolepgeek]

"Mmmm...Mavnon...I believe you might overestimate...the desire of the defenders...to pay deference to you...should they succeed against the armies you have sent against them...but I wanted to say, Liuthus...that he has a point...necessity is the mother of invention...and war breeds necessity...it also uses up resources...able to be otherwise used to Grow...but nonetheless..."

[FArgHalfnr]

snip

"From your point of view, the process of war and its consequences is horrid and without reason. To me, it is an artform. The marching of men in formation, fighting for causes close to their heart or far from it, ready to achieve their goals knowing full well they may die. I cannot expect you...to understand why I find war so thrilling but in any case, that is not the point. War leads to innovation; it forces the combatants to innovate and change so that they may change and take victory. The humans now under Clan Rilem for example stood no chance at all; I agree. However, they had a chance to improve. True, by themselves they could not possibly do a thing, but had their compatriots aided them they could have fought back the invasion and humbled the Clan. They did not and subsequently, their descendants are now Rilem in body and soul."

"As for centralisation....it is a very debatable point, one I hope to test with my creations. Notice that the Clan is centralised under one rule and the Orcs are scattered as many tribes. Nothing is without purpose, brother."

"And my deities of twin-soul, I benefit in every situation. Clan Rilem's victory resulted in greater worship towards me in thanks and praise. A human victory would have resulted in a new pool of champions from which I could have extracted agents. Dear Illyria is one such example and she has served me well since."

"As for the New Kingdom...."Mavnon smiled as if thinking of a good joke, "....what would you say if all implications I had ever made towards controlling the Kingdom were just that, implications? Have you once asked the great lord that rules there that I, Mavnon, is his puppetmaster, his patron and creator? He would scoff at such notions and dismiss you. Of course, you would expect that from me. A lesson Lithus: the best lie is an implication of truth that while plausible, is still just an implication. It is far more believable than blatant ones, true? The obelisk keeper of yours will surely remember my old stories as a winged messenger who saved the worlds?"

(snip again)

I must agree, that there is indeed something... Not artistic, but similar... like a dance, about war. The reason why I hate it is because of all the death and suffering it implies. If only such a thing could be made without having any blood spilled. Perhaps a dimension, where soldiers come back to life after dying, and are exempt from suffering, a place where conflicts are resolved without leading to needless wastes. Or perhaps a voluntary cold war, along with an arm race? Scientists from both nations would strive to find as much alternative use to each things discovered while devising new weapons. A friendly competition, perhaps. With the goal of being the best at bettering the live of their people, instead of killing as much of the other's population.

We do not seem to have any real disagreement over the issue of centralization, and so I will move to the next point.

Indeed, you seem to have mastered the art of benefiting from any situation, my fear is that you seem to favor doing so in a way that harms others needlessly.

As you said, I will not be convinced by mere words on your involvement with the new kingdom. I will require proofs, greater than those pointing towards your implication to change my mind.

You have forgotten to respond to one of my accusation, that is to play the tolerance card with the Aag people, hoping to be seen as more reasonable and kind that I am, while at the same time ordering a bloodbath in their homeland. I will refuse to continue this debate until this point is answered, and I except you to do the same should I skip one of your arguments myself. This is only a precaution, and I hope you will prove my doubts wrong.

Seeing your response to Teburshe, I hope that you do not plan to create this slave-mongering, assassin-riddled nation that you described. As you must know by now, I absolutely despite to see sapient lives being wasted or ended pointlessly.

Edit:

"Mmmm...Mavnon...I believe you might overestimate...the desire of the defenders...to pay deference to you...should they succeed against the armies you have sent against them...but I wanted to say, Liuthus...that he has a point...necessity is the mother of invention...and war breeds necessity...it also uses up resources...able to be otherwise used to Grow...but nonetheless..."

I must agree, hence my earlier propositions. I still believe that war is wasteful, and that we could devise a way to achieve the same goals without wasting lives.

[micelus]

((must've missed that one))



"Lithus, I have no quarrel with any singular race. That is very much beneath my and as such, I do not seek to impose punishment on them. The nation-state is an entity non-identical to the species and as such, I have no desire to unleash the Clan on non-combatants. Also, if I had truly sent the New Kingdom against the Aag, why have my creations and their allies not conquered the Aag yet? True, the Aag are formidable and their homeland is a difficult land to conquer, but the pressure of war from  Clan Rilem, Great Tribe, Orcs and New Kingdom would unquestionably be enough to defeat the Aag defenders. No offense to those who are reading this, but even you must admit you could never hope to defeat such a force at the time of this speech. You saw what my Clan did to the minor human tribal entities. The strong defeated the weak. The Aag, though strong, are outnumbered by similarly strong forces."

"Now about war once more. I believe I understand the main contention here; you think the lives of mortals are precious, yes? I do not. Yes, to a mortal their temporary existence is important. They live lives full of emotion, ease, hardship and an innumerable other things....but they end all the same. And at that end is an Afterlife, an Afterlife created by a myriad of gods to cater to mortal souls. These afterlives, more often than not, are permanent, unchanging and full of happiness. As mortal life is ultimately temporary, I do believe that ending them and allowing their souls to enter the Heavens is not a 'waste', simply a consequence of some actions. You will not agree with me, I know, but that is how I see things."

"As for your suggestion about enclosed warfare...that to me seems pointless. There is no gain, no anxiety, no motivation to change. Yes, the combatants would have prestige, glory and perhaps even wealth, but there is only desire, no need. That kind of Conflict is...artificial, fake and pointless, only a step above the Chaos that I oppose. True, friendly competition can too lead to goodness, but hostile combat is also needed."

Mavnon smiled.

"I don't believe I can convince you that I do not control the New Kingdom but consider this; the flow of essence from my being has only been directed to the Orcs and Dwarves in recent centuries. You can see this for yourself in that Library one of our brethren created. If that is not proof enough, then suffice to say I would have to actually go to war simply because you seem to be engendered to the idea that we are already at war."

"And as interesting as creating two contrasting civilisations is, I do not have the time for such diversions as of late. My current experiments are of far too much importance."

"Mmmm...Mavnon...I believe you might overestimate...the desire of the defenders...to pay deference to you...should they succeed against the armies you have sent against them...but I wanted to say, Liuthus...that he has a point...necessity is the mother of invention...and war breeds necessity...it also uses up resources...able to be otherwise used to Grow...but nonetheless..."

"Perhaps. But tell me, would a mortal refuse a boon, a reward for what they did? Could they? One needs not love his king to serve him, after all."

[Rolepgeek]

"...I believe most might refuse to serve at all...they won, after all...they need not acknowledge you as their lord...they would have had Iliseth for that...as the Aag will have Liuthus...and Liuthus...such a dimension would render war meaningless...it is, perhaps, a good thing war is so terrible...else, we might grow to enjoy it overmuch...besides which...the motivation of a looming threat...is what drives the necessity created by warfare...you should know, better than anyone...that Progress rarely occurs without either blood or tears being shed..."

[micelus]

"Perhaps I ought be clearer...or maybe I should not? Hmm...ah, yes. The rabbit, though hateful of the wolf, serves the wolf by devouring the homes of other prey."

[Ama]

Lauxal prayers:
Wolf Spider: Hey, itsa me, on your head! Can we go visit the planet sometimes?
Shadow Kabold: If mortals can daydream, can we have a day nightmare?
Human Adventurer: Hah, these dungeon creatures are nothing on me! Lauxal, send stronger monsters!

"Sure my child, is there anywhere in particular you want to visit?"
"Sure, if you want." Give Shadow Kobolds the ability to day nightmare.
"Im working on something that will be very skilled in combat, it shall be ready in time."

"Just so all the gods know, my children have been threatened by this New Kingdom, I will not allow this to continue."

[FallacyofUrist]

"Perhaps I ought be clearer...or maybe I should not? Hmm...ah, yes. The rabbit, though hateful of the wolf, serves the wolf by devouring the homes of other prey."

"Explain."

[micelus]

"One does not need to obey someone to act in his will."

[~Neri]

"Perhaps I ought be clearer...or maybe I should not? Hmm...ah, yes. The rabbit, though hateful of the wolf, serves the wolf by devouring the homes of other prey."

"Rabbits don't exist anymore. They got eaten. As did almost every single other nonwolfbased species."

[micelus]

"A metaphor rarely cares for reality."

[Rolepgeek]

"I'm afraid I don't understand...the rabbit serves the wolf...by depriving it of a food source...?...and Nilva...what's this about non-wolf based species being driven extinct...?"

[micelus]

"The rabbit eats the undergrowth that hides other species from the wolf, ergo making it easier for the wolf to hunt."

[Rolepgeek]

"..."

"...somehow, I feel your analogy is flawed..."

[micelus]

"It probably is."