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[Chiefwaffles]

Psionic Operatives can be easily obtained early in the game, like umiman said. Sectoid (first alien enemy!) autopsy -> Psionics -> Build lab -> Train soldier. That's two techs, one of which is a really easy one. If you don't have a psi-op until it's too late to properly use them, then that feels like mostly your fault.
I do think they could have had a bit better of a level-up system. I would have liked a system where they gain experience in the field but in order to actually level up they need to spend time in the tank.


Also, I'm calling it now that the aliens captured Vahlen and ran simulations in her mind (like they did to the Commander) in order to make the Chosen.

[Rolan7]

Oh my bad I guess, I focused on expanding territory for income and researching decent weaponry to survive, instead of dropping that time and research on sectoid autopsy.  I honestly didn't realize that that was the only prereq (along with 20 elerium), I got the psi-lab pretty late both runs also.  Particularly with the time limit and all.

[Chiefwaffles]

There's already a screenshot out!

It should be pretty self explanatory. According to a Firaxis employee, "this is one of many ways the Chosen will affect the strategy layer."

Spoiler: Large Image (click to show/hide)

[umiman]

I kinda hope they'll use a separate system from the stupid Alien Rulers thing where they get an action every single time you do something.

It's just not fun to fight against and feels really, REALLY cheap. Even if it turned out to be not so bad. To borrow a LoL term, I think it's "unfun" and fairly counterintuitive. After all, it straight up looks like that boss is cheating with unlimited turns.

[Neonivek]

Psionic Operatives can be easily obtained early in the game

Not the issue. Though "Easily obtained early in the game" is a bit deceptive in it of itself since, you absolutely will not want to do so in almost all cases and doing so will outright cripple you. Since ultimately they are a luxury resource, so they are more or less obtained in the mid game and typically utilized in the late/end game.

What the next game in the series needs to do is give Psionics more facetime then their current amount of facetime (I kind of think Longwar is about the only time most players will actually get a juicy amount of playtime with them)

It should be pretty self explanatory. According to a Firaxis employee, "this is one of many ways the Chosen will affect the strategy layer."

Yes basically the Chosen will apply timers to each location, and you have to do the counter mission before the timer runs out. All the while they give you additional penalties and harassing you. Probably ending with them outright destroying a region without retaliation.

Basically forced alien bases. For nothing.

[Chiefwaffles]

Not the issue. Though "Easily obtained early in the game" is a bit deceptive in it of itself since, you absolutely will not want to do so in almost all cases and doing so will outright cripple you. Since ultimately they are a luxury resource, so they are more or less obtained in the mid game and typically utilized in the late/end game.

What the next game in the series needs to do is give Psionics more facetime then their current amount of facetime (I kind of think Longwar is about the only time most players will actually get a juicy amount of playtime with them)

I get psionics usually around midgame in my Commander runs. It's probably not a good idea to rush it as soon as you kill a sectoid, but that just means you aren't getting it at the beginning of the game.

I like Psionics' facetime. It should remain a cool ability that you don't just immediately unlock. It represents the progression of XCOM and its soldiers and, in a way, a kind of turning point in the war. It's supposed to be something special, not just another weapon that you unlock immediately.

Yes basically the Chosen will apply timers to each location, and you have to do the counter mission before the timer runs out. All the while they give you additional penalties and harassing you. Probably ending with them outright destroying a region without retaliation.

Basically forced alien bases. For nothing.

"Yes basically the Exalt will apply penalties to each location, and you have to do the counter mission before the timer runs out and they go into hiding. All the while they give you additional penalties and harassing you.
Basically forced alien bases. For nothing."
Again. You can do that to literally anything.

[Neonivek]

Exalts came with much better tools for the player AND the changes were continuous and not to the side. The exalts weren't added in a expansion where the bulk of the expansion were the Exalts harassing you... AND you actually got much better tools that justified their inclusion.

In fact in spite the expansion called "Enemy Within" the actual "enemy within" wasn't the Exalts. They were a side element.

---

This expansion hasn't shown us anything yet. So far it is "What if Enemy Within was entirely about the Exalts?"

Which is why I want them to release more information. 3 extra classes is meaningless without context and is a very minor "Oooh and ahh" (and also insulting for people who bought the season pass only to be disappointed with their "waste your money" content)

[Chiefwaffles]

Exalts came with much better tools for the player AND the changes were continuous and not to the side. The exalts weren't added in a expansion where the bulk of the expansion were the Exalts harassing you... AND you actually got much better tools that justified their inclusion.

In fact in spite the expansion called "Enemy Within" the actual "enemy within" wasn't the Exalts. They were a side element.

Chosen came with much better tools for the player AND the changes were continuous and not to the side. The Chosen weren't added in an expansion where the bulk of the expansion is the Chosen harassing you... AND you actually get much better tools that justified their inclusion.

In fact in spite the expansion called "War of the Chosen" the actual "War" wasn't just the Chosen. They are a side element.

...

All Exalt even does is harass you repeatedly until they harass you enough so you can find their base and destroy it. That's it. That's Exalt. And the Exalt was a pretty major selling point of Enemy Within. In addition to Gene Mods, MECs, and the Furies mission line. War of the Chosen (I wish that name was shorter) adds the factions, a decent amount of static missions (based on the amount of ingame cinematics that were in the trailer), the Faceless, the Chosen, and more.

I mean, Enemy Within is a great expansion pack. I like it. I just think that you're being unnecessarily negative, even for you. For whatever reason, it feels like you decided to hate the expansion before you saw anything about it.

[Neonivek]

...And the Chosen also come with much better tools for the player AND the changes were continuous and not to the side.

Like?

I hope you don't mean "send scientists into the geoglobe" (a feature taken from Longwar)

Or do you mean 3 new classes which we have no context for AND who also take content from previously existing content.

Also, no so far there is nothing for "Continuous" no evidence of that. So far it is "The Chosen harass you on the globe"

I mean, Enemy Within is a great expansion pack. I like it. I just think that you're being unnecessarily negative, even for you.

And I think you are making up the content of this expansion pack inside your head in order to justify it being an amazing expansion pack, albeit without knowing it. (Or rather you are suffering from Hype)

Picturing the Chosen as this active AI set against the player! The new Classes as fully fleshed out classes that use entirely new systems of gameplay. That every mission will be new and interesting as the Chosen will infect even the most banal of missions.

I mean I definitely want to play the game you imagine this expansion to be. However my rule of videogames is: "Whenever presented with a feature, imagine it in the least interesting way possible. You will be right the vast majority of the time" So right now I am waiting for clarification rather then adding my imagination to the scant words.

Unless the Dinky version of the game I am picturing it is, with what we have been told, is exactly the idea of the game you have. In which case REALLY!?! This is the expansion you believe will rock all others and kick Enemy Within off its pedestal? Improving the Exalt mechanics which were the least interesting part of Enemy Within AND were the misdirect? Not the Meld?

The relationship abilities are where I roll my eyes to admit. As if I wanted my games to be more like Fire Emblem.

[Chiefwaffles]

NEW FACTIONS & HERO CLASSES
Three additional factions have emerged to strengthen Earth's resistance – the Reapers, Skirmishers and Templars – each with its own unique abilities and contrasting philosophies. These factions provide powerful hero class soldiers to aid in missions and new opportunities for the strategy layer.
THE CHOSEN
The Chosen are the most cunning enemies XCOM has ever faced, each with unique strengths and weaknesses that will be introduced with each new campaign. The Chosen are on the hunt for the Commander and will kidnap, interrogate, and kill XCOM’s soldiers to complete their objective. The Chosen can also invade the strategy layer and ravage XCOM’s global operations. Find and raid the Chosen’s strongholds to defeat the enemy for good.
NEW ALIEN & ADVENT THREATS
A deadly new alien known as the Spectre, capable of creating dark copies of XCOM soldiers, has snuck onto the battlefield. Adopt new tactics to counter it as well as the explosive attacks of the ADVENT Purifier and the psionically charged ADVENT Priest.
NEW ENVIRONMENTS AND MISSION OBJECTIVES
Engage in tactical missions across new environments from abandoned cities devastated by alien bioweapons during the original invasion, to underground tunnels and xenoformed wilderness regions.
ENHANCED STRATEGY LAYER
Manage XCOM’s relations with factions and counter The Chosen’s operations from the Avenger. Employ new Resistance Orders to prioritize your personal strategy. Soldiers, scientists, and engineers can now be deployed for Covert Actions that award supplies and boost faction favor if successfully completed.
GREATER CUSTOMIZATION & REPLAYABILITY
Soldiers can develop bonds with compatible teammates for new abilities and perks. The SITREP system dynamically adds new modifiers to the tactical layer to make sure every mission provides a unique challenge. Advanced campaign options allow for finer adjustments to game length and difficulty.
CHALLENGE MODE
Utilize the perfect strategy in new regular one-shot community challenges to claim the top spot on the global leaderboard.
SHARE THE RESISTANCE
Customize and pose your soldiers, then add filters, text and backgrounds to generate your own unique resistance posters that appear in-game and can be shared with friends.

And yes, I do mean the "Soldiers, scientists, and engineers can now be deployed for Covert Actions that award supplies and boost faction favor if successfully completed." That is very obviously not like the Long War mechanic, where you just stationed someone at a Haven for a relatively minor buff to that haven.

I would also like to point out that the changes in Enemy Within were definitely to the side. It just added a new class + new abilities to the side. They were both locked behind the same tech, didn't improve upon the base features, and were just buffs that you could add to any of your soldiers.
In War for the Chosen, you have the new factions, which all have clearly unique styles of play for their soldiers as well as the mechanics for relations with the factions. That's three new classes. Enemy Within just adds one new class and some buffs you can give to individual soldiers.

And what do you even mean by "continuous"? Seems like an unnecessary qualifier that only serves to differentiate Enemy Within and this expansion to further your argument and doesn't actually mean anything ingame.

EDIT: Of course you doubled the size of your post via edits.

And I think you are making up the content of this expansion pack inside your head in order to justify it being an amazing expansion pack, albeit without knowing it. (Or rather you are suffering from Hype)

Every single thing I have talked about has been taken directly from official descriptions of the War of the Chosen.

Picturing the Chosen as this active AI set against the player! The new Classes as fully fleshed out classes that use entirely new systems of gameplay. That every mission will be new and interesting as the Chosen will infect even the most banal of missions.

Huh?

I mean I definitely want to play the game you imagine this expansion to be. However my rule of videogames is: "Whenever presented with a feature, imagine it in the least interesting way possible. You will be right the vast majority of the time" So right now I am waiting for clarification rather then adding my imagination to the scant words.

Again, every single thing I have talked about has been taken directly from the official descriptions of the War of the Chosen.
That and there is a difference between being realistic nad being insanely pessimistic. You aren't even basing your complaitns on reality. You're intentionally twisting what we've seen so farr to make it seem worse than it actually is. There's a difference between "Oh, 3 new classes; interesting." And "Oh they said three new classes? I BET THEY'RE ALL COPY-PASTES OF ONE ANOTHER AND DON'T ADD ANYTHING TO GAMEPLAY!!"
You're enacting the latter example.

Unless the Dinky version of the game I am picturing it is, with what we have been told, is exactly the idea of the game you have. In which case REALLY!?! This is the expansion you believe will rock all others and kick Enemy Within off its pedestal? Improving the Exalt mechanics which were the least interesting part of Enemy Within AND were the misdirect? Not the Meld?

What?

The relationship abilities are where I roll my eyes to admit. As if I wanted my games to be more like Fire Emblem.

I don't like fire emblem and the relationship stuff seems interesting. It's obviously not "Your soldiers married and are having a baby!", but having squad dynamics is interesting because it gives more choices and thought behind creating and sending out squads. Instead of just sending out the best soldiers you have at the time of the mission, you'll actually put some thought into what squads you'll send out.

[Neonivek]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

NEW FACTIONS & HERO CLASSES
Three additional factions have emerged to strengthen Earth's resistance – the Reapers, Skirmishers and Templars – each with its own unique abilities and contrasting philosophies. These factions provide powerful hero class soldiers to aid in missions and new opportunities for the strategy layer.

-Three new classes. Only this time you unlock them by doing extra mission garbage. Hope you can increase their bar to get them to the support where they will lend you an operative.
--Though goodness wouldn't it suck if this doesn't even unlock any classes? Which reading this suggest there aren't.

THE CHOSEN
The Chosen are the most cunning enemies XCOM has ever faced, each with unique strengths and weaknesses that will be introduced with each new campaign. The Chosen are on the hunt for the Commander and will kidnap, interrogate, and kill XCOM’s soldiers to complete their objective. The Chosen can also invade the strategy layer and ravage XCOM’s global operations. Find and raid the Chosen’s strongholds to defeat the enemy for good.

-New Enemy base mechanics that we have already seen.

NEW ALIEN & ADVENT THREATS
A deadly new alien known as the Spectre, capable of creating dark copies of XCOM soldiers, has snuck onto the battlefield. Adopt new tactics to counter it as well as the explosive attacks of the ADVENT Purifier and the psionically charged ADVENT Priest.

-One new non-exalt Alien. The other 6 (yes there are only 7 additional enemies, that is an announced feature) are likely just the Chosen.

NEW ENVIRONMENTS AND MISSION OBJECTIVES
Engage in tactical missions across new environments from abandoned cities devastated by alien bioweapons during the original invasion, to underground tunnels and xenoformed wilderness regions.

New set pieces

ENHANCED STRATEGY LAYER
Manage XCOM’s relations with factions and counter The Chosen’s operations from the Avenger. Employ new Resistance Orders to prioritize your personal strategy. Soldiers, scientists, and engineers can now be deployed for Covert Actions that award supplies and boost faction favor if successfully completed.

-You can play the game! Or likely "Covert action appeared in Africa. Deploy scientist for +20 supplies"

GREATER CUSTOMIZATION & REPLAYABILITY
Soldiers can develop bonds with compatible teammates for new abilities and perks. The SITREP system dynamically adds new modifiers to the tactical layer to make sure every mission provides a unique challenge. Advanced campaign options allow for finer adjustments to game length and difficulty.

You now get bonuses for being with friends.

CHALLENGE MODE
Utilize the perfect strategy in new regular one-shot community challenges to claim the top spot on the global leaderboard.
SHARE THE RESISTANCE
Customize and pose your soldiers, then add filters, text and backgrounds to generate your own unique resistance posters that appear in-game and can be shared with friends.

Yeah, not going to lie... This is basically a non-feature for me.

---

So as you can see... until I know more... All I see is "You can increase bars!"

Edit: OOOOH rereading it I made a BIG mistake.

Edit: There aren't 3 new classes... There are 0 new classes.

Now I didn't write this to harass you Chief Waffles, I just want you to see inside my mind and see how announcing a bare feature doesn't instantly make me apply my imagination into creating a vast and elegant system. If you say three new factions with "Different philosophies" I imagine bars, mission types, and aesthetics.

I am just saying need more information. We have no information.

I know what Enemy Within had... I don't know what this has... and nothing here suggests to me quality on par with Enemy Within.

I don't think I am being "excessively negative" for not being lead around by my nose eating every bit of hype they leave on the plate like it was the greatest dish I ever had. I think having a "I am not impressed yet" is a decent viewpoint.

Or is there something here that I MUST be impressed with? That any human being would be flat out idiotic not to go gaga over?

[Chiefwaffles]

First, see what I said in regards to the part you edited into your last post.
And before I go into your post, I'd like to point out that this is the same thing I've called you out multiple times for doing. You're simplifying it to make it sound negative.

Like for a trivial task.
You can say "I made myself dinner."
Or you can say "I cooked myself dinner then sat down to eat it"
Or you can say "I walked downstairs, then into the kitchen. I then had to find a pot then put it on a stove. After doing all this, I had to pour in my uncooked food then I hate to wait even longer. I had to go hunt for a bowl, then I had to put the food into the bowl!"
These are all accurately describing what happened, but notice how the tones differ. #3 is technically accurate but puts a misleading tone to the action by purposely adding and removing detail to fit its narrative.

-Three new classes

Yup. But wait, what's this?

Or do you mean 3 new classes which we have no context for AND who also take content from previously existing content.

Because it sure as hell looks like you're making up negative parts about this to justify your pessimism.

-New Enemy base mechanics

Yup. And new missions. Another reductionist argument that's intentionally misleading to further your argument.

-One new non-exalt Alien

Ooh, random qualifiers! Watch me do the same thing: "Enemy Within adds nothing because I only consider new bosses real new enemies."
Both new ADVENT units are unique gameplay-wise and disparaging them just because they're ADVENT is just a qualifier specifically designed to justify your random hatred for this EP.

New set pieces

Yup.

-You can play the game!

I'm sorry, what?

This is the most useless complaint I've ever heard. Here, watch me describe all of Enemy Within using this exact same logic:
"-You can play the game!"

You now get bonuses for being with friends

This is outright misleading in addition to being a prime example of the idiotic reductionist "argument" I've called you out time and time again (including at the top of this post and another time inside this post) for using.
I already described the merits of the cohesion system in my last post. Then, you glaze over the SITREP system which isn't actually related at all to the bonds system. The SITREP gives modifier to certain random missions that change the gameplay by encouraging different strategies and tactics. This all comes from /u/FXS_MisterKevin on reddit.

Let me describe Enemy Within's Gene Mods in the same fashion as you described this.
"You now get bonuses for waiting three days."

TOTAL GARBAGE!

Look, I can do the same thing to all of Enemy Within!
"TOTAL GARBAGE!"

So therefore Enemy Within has zero content because I don't like it.



I would also like to point out that I am basing some of this on an interview with Jake Solomon right after the trailer was unveiled.

EDIT: Jesus, Neonivek. Post it at once please. I can't actually do anything when you're constantly editing and changing your post.

[Neonivek]

Ok, I think I have a better way of demonstrating my POV

Here is a quote... I will strike out ALL the fluff.

NEW FACTIONS & HERO CLASSES
Three additional factions have emerged to strengthen Earth's resistance – the Reapers, Skirmishers and Templars – each with its own unique abilities and contrasting philosophies. These factions provide powerful hero class soldiers to aid in missions and new opportunities for the strategy layer.

"New Opportunities for the strategy layer" is the odd one to strike... But I striked it because that is somewhat of a non-feature.

As for what makes me cautious about how "special" they are. If you look at the screen shots you will see one of them has a VERY similar move you might have seen before.

---

The best case scenario is that they don't even add actual classes to the game (at least not the three).

But rather that they work similar to the Mechs. In that they are revamps of existing classes. That would immediately make me very interested.

[Chiefwaffles]

This is in response to some of the edits you made on your other post:

1.) If you actually did any research on the new classes, you would know they are in fact new classes.
2.) And why do you say you've already seen these mechanics?
3.) Enemy Within added two alien enemies and EXALT. EXALT technically consists of multiple units, but it's just the same actual unit but with a loadout based on an existing XCOM class.
4.) You're assuming things about Covert Action just to justify your hatred.
5.) You are not just saying we need more information. I'm fine with that, but let's see this post of yours:

Yes basically the Chosen will apply timers to each location, and you have to do the counter mission before the timer runs out. All the while they give you additional penalties and harassing you. Probably ending with them outright destroying a region without retaliation.
Basically forced alien bases. For nothing.

This is not a call for more information. This is just hatred based on assumption.
6.)

I don't think I am being "excessively negative" for not being lead around by my nose eating every bit of hype they leave on the plate like it was the greatest dish I ever had. I think having a "I am not impressed yet" is a decent viewpoint.
Or is there something here that I MUST be impressed with? That any human being would be flat out idiotic not to go gaga over?

Holy Strawman, Batman! This is very obviously not what I'm arguing. And no, as I said in #5, your viewpoint isn't "I am not impressed yet." It's hatred based on pure assumption.

And this is in response to your latest post.

Here is a quote... I will strike out ALL the fluff.

NEW FACTIONS & HERO CLASSES
Three additional factions have emerged to strengthen Earth's resistance – the Reapers, Skirmishers and Templars – each with its own unique abilities and contrasting philosophies. These factions provide powerful hero class soldiers to aid in missions and new opportunities for the strategy layer.

"New Opportunities for the strategy layer" is the odd one to strike... But I striked it because that is somewhat of a non-feature.

As for what makes me cautious about how "special" they are. If you look at the screen shots you will see one of them has a VERY similar move you might have seen before.

---

The best case scenario is that they don't even add actual classes to the game (at least not the three).

But rather that they work similar to the Mechs. In that they are revamps of existing classes.

Okay, that's three additional factions, not just three classes.
They have unique abilities.
They have been said to be the most powerful soldiers Firaxis has created. This isn't fluff. The use of "Hero" here is justified because they're a new type of class. Your crossing out of "powerful" is also not justified.
And your crossing out of the last part - "to aid in missions and new opportunities for the strategy layer", is completely unjustified. They add gameplay to the strategy layer; how the hell do you think that's fluff? Why are they a nonfeature? Just because you say so? Why must new content be in specific parts of the game to be considered a feature?

Now let's see what you said about this.

-Three new classes. Only this time you unlock them by doing extra mission garbage. Hope you can increase their bar to get them to the support where they will lend you an operative.

Wow, it's almost like your hatred of the game is based on assumptions?


Also, seriously. Please look through your posts before you hit that "Post" button. It's infuriating to write out a response only for you to radically change it.


EDIT: But I'm done here. I've cluttered up the thread enough. If you want to continue arguing, please feel free to do so over PMs. If for whatever reason you want the last public word, I really don't care.

[Neonivek]

Or at LEAST Chief Waffles... Accept based on politeness that my intent is only that I am not impressed with this expansion yet (Mostly due to lack of information).