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Author Topic: X-Com Chimera Squad  (Read 732955 times)

Krevsin

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2625 on: October 10, 2015, 02:41:57 am »

Smarter aliens with access to an interspeciated army would have run some good-cop / bad-cop false flag kind of shit.

Oh, I see you have a classic sectoid invasion here.  Let us, the benevolent etherials, help you out.  Unfortunately, were pathological pacifists and can't fight on your behalf, but we can offer this tasty tasty meld.

Sheesh, no wonder the dipshits weren't allowed to apotheosize.
Isn't that what they do to with governments that exit the XCOM project?

I mean that's what I always imagined happened.
"So you have an alium problem and are unhappy with how your earthling project is protecting you. Here, we'll give you these plasma guns and protection in exchange for eternal servitute. No biggie."
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Neonivek

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2626 on: October 10, 2015, 02:45:59 am »

I can guess one of the HUGE reasons why the aliens are being so nice this time around is that the mother ship, for obvious reasons, isn't there anymore.

The aliens are still technically weaker then the whole of humanity (until they finish their secret plans for a giant psionic amplifier that will mindslave all of humanity)
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KingofstarrySkies

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2627 on: October 10, 2015, 02:49:41 am »

...lol what
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Neonivek

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2628 on: October 10, 2015, 03:08:40 am »

...lol what

Why would the mothership still be around? It failed miserably and it probably already left to find another possible suitable candidate.

Or do you mean the alien's master plan?
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RAM

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2629 on: October 10, 2015, 03:17:32 am »

Remember how Meld works? You get more when you've been doing poorly on missions and less when you've been doing well.
Was that only in a mod?

But yeah, realistically, the templeship was probably available from the outset, unless it took at least months to recharge after F.t.L. travel... Maybe it is sol stellar-powered?
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Rolan7

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2630 on: October 10, 2015, 03:27:30 am »

My best point is at the very end but I enjoyed talking about each item, sorry.
Sorry, I misunderstood--

I'd thought that that part of the assertion had been self-evident. Yes, obviously on the one hand you have "game mechanics", but purely fluffwise we know the following:

1. They began with small, light, infrequent attacks using only their weakest troops. They slowly scaled up the threat level and intensity of their attacks over time.
The attacks scale up rapidly, particularly in response to XCOM successfully stopping them.  Which could be them adjusting the difficulty of the "test", but could also be them realizing the threat and committing more valuable resources and troops.  That was the point of this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It doesn't have to be excused as only a gameplay thing, or explained as the aliens going easy on us. 
2. Despite having psionic mind control which is demonstrably capable of functionally puppeteering human governments, they establish such holds on macroscopic power infrequently, slowly, and only in areas where XCOM repeatedly fails.
Their mind control is temporary and generally limited to line of sight.  There's no evidence that they can puppeteer a human government...  Nations leave the council, essentially surrendering, because they decide that XCOM cannot protect them.

It was very different in OldCOM, where psionics was more powerful.  A battleship landed in the nation and forced them to withdraw.  The NewCOM aliens just don't have that psionic power.
3. There aren't massive swaths of land completely overrun by Chryssalids, despite a certain mission demonstrating that it would be laughably easy to seed a few dozen locations with nascent hives.
Doing so would ruin their 7 billion test subjects, replacing them with a failed race.
4. Despite having a fleet apparently measured in scores if not hundreds of ships, the aliens launch them piecemeal, deploying only a few at a time, and scaling the threat similarly to their ground units.
Each ship type has a distinct mission.  They don't send terror ships until they recognize XCOM's threat, and decide to disrupt their funding by forcing nations to leave.  Supply ships are self-explanatory.  Battleships are presumably precious, not to be wasted on mere abductions.

After all, XCOM can take down a battleship with jetfighters.  In the first month or two, the aliens don't know to send the heavy stuff.  After that, XCOM can take out their most powerful units...  Even each battleship costs XCOM dearly, it may not seem worthwhile to the aliens.
5. As above, Meld Canisters. More specifically, their distribution. I think it's fair to argue that they're distributed intentionally to get Meld into human hands as part of the uplift process. Remember how Meld works? You get more when you've been doing poorly on missions and less when you've been doing well.
Into human hands, but not XCOM's.  Whenever XCOM sees a meld canister, it's working to somehow disable itself.  Why? 
As I mentioned before, I think they're distributing meld as gaseous spores of nanites.
6. With the size of their fleet and the quality of their shipboard weapons, the aliens are easily capable of Independence Daying a few dozen major cities, which would undoubtedly make it easier to subdue humanity. They didn't.
We don't know the size of their fleet, or if it's being reinforced through a stargate on the Temple Ship. 
Even if they do have the whole fleet, and have the weaponry to glass major cities, there are many arguments for why they may not:
They don't want to waste millions of test subject, preferring terror (thus, the terror ships and cryssalids)
If they send a battleship to destroy a city, the next battleship to approach a city will be nuked by humanity.  Why not, when they're dead anyway?
Destroying whole cities outright could scare a country out of surrendering.
Basically the aliens are invaders, not destroyers.  They need to occupy Earth, and that means scaring people yet offering them hope in surrender.
7. Connected to 4 & 6: Early on, you've got four interceptors and shit weapons. If they just wanted to conquer Earth, why didn't they launch a few dozen ships every time you sent out an interceptor? It would be painfully simple to utterly shut down XCOM's early air game even with half a dozen fighters, never mind a battleship or ten.
For one thing, shutting down the "early air game" only makes any sense because XCOM's funding and equipment are absurdly limited for gameplay reasons. 

Lore wise, we can assume that similar jets are engaging scouts and harvesters worldwide.  Maybe some are even succeeding.  Heck, EXALT is getting concentrated Meld from *somewhere*, and XCOM sells/barters a lot of alien tech to the world governments.

With that much resistance, and if we can accept that they don't necessarily have infinite battleships, it makes sense to use the cheap nimble scouts and hold the big guns in reserve.
Do I need to go on?

Why "train" XCOM up, when they make their own supremely powerful psi-humans in their own labs?
Why did the aliens crush XCOM in the XCOM2 backstory, if they wanted to train XCOM?  I say they had more resources, and XCOM wasn't good enough.

Actually, that is what's canon:
Quote
“We've all had our losses with XCOM, and so we use kind of a light touch. But the idea is that XCOM never made it out of conventional weapons; that the aliens came in overwhelming force and overwhelming numbers,” he said. “To say Impossible Iron Man is canon is perfect. We think that’s basically the experience that XCOM had.”
It's just Impossible Iron Man, so they still started with scouts and harvesters!  XCOM just wasn't able to adapt and stop them.  And they didn't ease off to train us up, they crushed the resistance and started their experiments. 

*That* is what the aliens canonically did with their overwhelming resources.
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Neonivek

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2631 on: October 10, 2015, 03:43:47 am »

Quote
Nations leave the council, essentially surrendering, because they decide that XCOM cannot protect them.

The implication I always got is that when a nation leaves the council they aren't surrendering, it means they lost faith in the Xcom project and are basically fending for themselves.

Quote
Their mind control is temporary and generally limited to line of sight.  There's no evidence that they can puppeteer a human government... 

Given the tutorial the implication is more that the mind control is really obvious. A difference between game and story mechanics.

Though I wouldn't be surprised in the Etherials were much better at it and could do complete domination. Afterall they threatened to mind control your base even while in alien containment.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 03:51:25 am by Neonivek »
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scrdest

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2632 on: October 10, 2015, 06:57:45 am »

Re: Aliums not mind-controlling ALL TEH GUBMINTS... that gave me an idea for what could actually be a pretty cool plot in itself - human counterintelligence efforts against Thin Mint infiltration and human thralls and traitors/EXALT operations.

Could probably work as a modded Night's Black Agents campaign... hmm...
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Teneb

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2633 on: October 10, 2015, 08:44:12 am »

Dude. Listen to the dialogue.

I mean, sure you can hem and haw and try to split hairs, but at the end of the day the Uber Ethereal literally said the following at the very end when it knew it was defeated:
Quote
Behold the greatest failure... of the Ethereal Ones... we who failed to ascend as they thought we would.

We who were cast out. We who were doomed to feed on the Gift of lesser beings... as we sought to uplift them... to prepare them... for what lies ahead.

*After killing the Uber Ethereal in-game*
This is not your path! Not your purpose! You need our guidance to hone this power... without us, what are you?

That's about as clear-cut as it gets.
Quoting from last page, but I think we are ignoring something. The Bureau (which was in development when Newcom came out) is probably canon. I doubt anyone cares for spoilers for that game, but in it you get to see two ethereals that are radically different from the ones you fight in Enemy Unknown/Within. In fact, you even play as one (that is mind controlling a human). In that game, these ethereals are actually "ethereal", being made of energy and mostly invisible, "bonding" with creatures to be able to have any effect on the world.

Quote
Behold the greatest failure... of the Ethereal Ones... we who failed to ascend as they thought we would.

We who were cast out. We who were doomed to feed on the Gift of lesser beings... as we sought to uplift them... to prepare them... for what lies ahead.
This could mean that the ethereals that lead the invasion were either failed creations of the true ethereals, or ethereals who failed to ascend and thus have to feed on psychic energy to survive.
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KingofstarrySkies

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2634 on: October 10, 2015, 09:14:43 am »

...lol what

Why would the mothership still be around? It failed miserably and it probably already left to find another possible suitable candidate.

Or do you mean the alien's master plan?
Define failed miserably. I don't think I understand you here.
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Sigtextastic
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Shadowlord

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2635 on: October 10, 2015, 09:25:58 am »

Dude. Listen to the dialogue.

I mean, sure you can hem and haw and try to split hairs, but at the end of the day the Uber Ethereal literally said the following at the very end when it knew it was defeated:
Quote
Behold the greatest failure... of the Ethereal Ones... we who failed to ascend as they thought we would.

We who were cast out. We who were doomed to feed on the Gift of lesser beings... as we sought to uplift them... to prepare them... for what lies ahead.

*After killing the Uber Ethereal in-game*
This is not your path! Not your purpose! You need our guidance to hone this power... without us, what are you?

That's about as clear-cut as it gets.

The problem here is that we're believing what the Uber Ethereal is saying. He's not a reliable source. :P
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a1s

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2636 on: October 10, 2015, 03:10:09 pm »

...lol what

Why would the mothership still be around? It failed miserably and it probably already left to find another possible suitable candidate.

Or do you mean the alien's master plan?
Define failed miserably. I don't think I understand you here.
It didn't "fail miserably", humans did. It, on the other hand, successfully carried out testing which didn't result in a new uber-race of space warriors. You gotta kiss a lot of frogs... etc.
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Rolan7

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2637 on: October 10, 2015, 03:15:26 pm »

I can guess one of the HUGE reasons why the aliens are being so nice this time around is that the mother ship, for obvious reasons, isn't there anymore.

The aliens are still technically weaker then the whole of humanity (until they finish their secret plans for a giant psionic amplifier that will mindslave all of humanity)
Huh, okay this actually makes more sense to me now.

I don't agree, but...  Yeah, maybe humanity did fail the Test (which I don't believe in), and the mothership left.  With the remaining aliens working not to build the perfect race, but just another failed -but useful- slave species.
... While incorporating the best parts of human DNA into the other battle thralls, of course.

My position is that they still see human DNA as the balanced material they need to properly ascend.  But maybe XCOM's failure fooled them.  It's possible.
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TempAcc

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2638 on: October 10, 2015, 03:27:02 pm »

Maybe that will be the major plot point of nucom 2 :v

Aliums go "naaaaah we failed again lets turn them into slaves and go away searching for more hookers and blow", humanity turns around and  ends up ascending by itself, aliums notice, come back to check on things, and get collectively stabbed by the newfangled humanity.
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Shadowlord

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Re: X-Com 2: Arguing About Aliens Always Angry Altercations
« Reply #2639 on: October 10, 2015, 03:28:47 pm »

Is there some reason to think the mothership isn't there anymore? It's not like it got blown up or anything.
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