Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Any D&D/D20

Shadowrun

World of Darkness

Palladium

Other (feel free to post about it)

[UXLZ]

Wizards got changed to basically how sorcerers used to work, didn't they?

[Neonivek]

There's also something I've encountered in the magic system. Between the miscellaneous nerfs and those done by way of the new Concentration mechanic, and a vastly smaller set of spells, there are actually relatively few spells worth taking. In 3.5/PF my usual problem with casters is narrowing my options, not digging up enough spells that aren't mehworthy or complete crap.

Quite a few of them are better then you would think due to how the system differs (Charm is a big one)

But the "I have to select the useful spells" comes from the fact that Wizards and Sorcerers aren't super duper broken.

Which is kind of the thing. You no longer are surfing through a sea of "Now how do I want to utterly trump this encounter" spells... or Spells that do more damage then the entire rest of your party combined... or spells that kill the entire enemy party instantly... or spells that make you immune to the encounter (hey Rope Trick).

I'll put it this way... 3.5 was built off of trying to negate the Wizard at all times. All bosses had to have magic resistance and any enemy worth his salt had magic immunity.

Wizards got changed to basically how sorcerers used to work, didn't they?

Wizards are still wizards but they are Wizards who can cast like Sorcerers.

If spells were as broken as they were in 3.5... Then goodness they would break the game over their knee.

---

I will say that Wizards in many ways feel "not as powerful" but I have no idea how they could have fixed that without just jumping back into 3.5s "Ha ha ha! my level 1 spell destroys you CR 100 encounter!"

Then again higher level Wizards are extremely powerful... So the fact that Wizards start off not feeling all that amazing and end up raining death down to the battlefield... Might actually work better.

But I never got to see a high level wizard.

In otherwords I feel like FlyingDice is right, but I think 3.5 did Wizards worse (they are fun! don't get me wrong. It just isn't fun to be the fighter standing beside a Wizard or the GM knowing that an encounter revolves entirely around a wizard). So the solution would have to be between 3.5 and 5e... Wizards feeling potent and powerful without being weak.

Honestly having Wizards have spells that take multiple rounds would be an elegant solution. As well Wizards could have had two levels of concentration... "Concentrate" and "Sustain" that way some spells could have been "sustained" without fear of them suddenly not working, while still not letting you stack a metric ton of spells.

For example... Spiderclimb? Sustained, making it concentrate weakens it vastly. Expeditious retreat? Concentration, it fits the moves theme since it is meant for you to retreat in.

[Neyvn]

So I do a weekly game each Thursday Night at the Gamestore I frequent. There the players go through a Dungeon in the style of RPGs of old, which are Randomly Generated and themed whenever they enter the floor or such depending on how I set it up the night or so before. Such as getting the Paperminis for the monsters and have a general idea of how the floor will be laid out. So, technically not fully Randomly Genned but for their eyes it is. Heck I even explained that despite the fact they are technically going deeper into the dungeon, sometimes the dungeon itself will have the floor being all different things such as a Forest adventure with Blue Skies and everything or maybe a Naval styled dungeon or something, like I said, whatever I feel like generating or whatever the Dice come up with from the Pathfinder DMG...

Anyway, during the off time I felt that it would be fun to make a whole extra game that happens whenever we are not playing, something to unlock and grow during the weeks of playtime. A Guildhall in fact. While they haven't fully unlocked the first part, which will hopefully happen soon but they tend to drag out things and after a lucky chance of them splitting the party and completing a puzzle that was originally designed to force them to split they split as soon as they come to a crossroad and this drags out gameplay as most DMs will know...

The design of this is that I make my dungeon tiles out of cardboard following this - TheDMGInfo Youtube. I took this sort of idea and ran with it, deciding to get hold of a large sheet of thin cardboard that I measured out to be 16x16 tiles big (with some small cutoff) and collected some thicker thin cardboard from Catfood trays to act as the rooms. Which also happened to be a perfect 2x3 (TINY cutoff of 2mm). These two are the Guildhall's building area for as they unlock things and build up their guildhall, even allowing them to go multistory if needed...

Each player JUMPED onto this idea, instantly loving the idea of these unlockable rooms with ideas and plans for making cash and such out of game, which I agreed with. SO I began working on some things. The first thing I made was this Job License, of which they could attach to their Character sheet to expand into, and then began working out how to make their professions actually work. One wanted to be a farmer, and cause this technically didn't require any special rooms but land I said that this will be the example of how things can be done and got to work planning it out while they did their Dungeon Runs to get gold and possibly the Unlock of the Entrance of the Guildhall (First Keystone part to start their building) as they are currently just a couple of Tents around their Hearthfire (Guildhall Heart if you were)...

An added bit of fun for when they finish a Run and enter their planning mode of how to do their Guildhall stuff as only when the PCs are out of the Dungeon can they use the Guildhall during the weekgap between games I felt that some days we could have separate from Runs to just do some City Fun. And that isn't always fun for all types of players so I made the Dungeon 'Bleed' and have Mobs attack their Hearthfire as in a Dungeon Defense gametype, which they loved, the idea is that the Monsters and Encounters they meet in the dungeon come back for a second attempt to screw them over. Bwhahaha...

But I just recently finished working on the Farmer's Profession cards for his starting level. And here it is... Profession Cards

For those DMs interested in this idea, the lore of this game is thus.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A Group of hardy Adventurers long ago discovered a unique dungeon hidden away in the land. They traveled deep into its caves discovering that on each floor a different theme appeared, while the first was a Cave with Kobolds, as they proceed down they found themselves in a thick forest on the next and then an Island on the following and so forth. Each Floor seemed to be vastly different and more difficult then the ones before dispite the fact they knew that they were going deeper and deeper each floor...

On the Tenth floor they discovered themselves in what appeared to be more like that of a Throne Room, and at the far end, spread out over a large Chaise longue before a swath of gold, gems and many other valuables, was a Gigantic Man who slowly feed himself grapes, wine and other assortments of the feast spread before him. This man introduced himself as Arrengee. The God of this Dungeon. He congratulated the Adventurers in compleating his trials and offered them to partake in his Feast as he summoned them chairs as well. During the meal Arrengee informed them as a reward for their success they could help themselves to his Treasure or to gain a Single Wish from him...

Naturally the Adventurers took the offer of the Wish and excused themselves as they discussed the possibilities away from the God. As they knew, a Wish is only as good as its most straight forward meaning, a simple mistake could change everything if said incorrectly. An argument began to rise as thoughts were shared and as it grew one member separated himself from the conversation and returned to the Feast. His name was Ottarr, and he was a Barbarian. A man to whom this Dungeon had been the greatest adventure to date. As he resumed feasting as his friends argued just out of ear shot, he started talking to Arrengee...

"This was the greatest Adventure I have ever been on to date," he informed Arrengee, "This Dungeon of yours was super fun and exciting. I only wish that it had lasted longer..."

Without realizing it, Ottarr had made the Wish that his fellow party members were still discussing about, and without warning except from a chuckle and a handwave from the God, the Party were teleported outside of the Dungeon in a blink of an eye. Confused about what had happened and disappointed with Ottarr for his mistake, the Adventurers decided to delve back into the Dungeon, perhaps if they compleate it again, they might get another chance at a Wish. But as they descended, deeper and deeper, they did not find Arrengee on the Tenth floor. Or the Twentieth or Fiftieth or even the Hundredth. No matter how deep they went, the Dungeon was infact, Longer. Forever Longer. It never ended. As per the Wish...

Tired and growing older and weaker. The Adventurers eventually quit exploring the Dungeon, they had found themselves wealthy beyond all measure though, so they bought the land from the kingdom and set themselves as Regents of a Small Village built around the Dungeon. Word of course spread out across the land and many Adventurers and Thrill Seekers came from far and wide to explore the Dungeon. The small village grew into a town, then into a small city and eventually into the greatest city in the land. A Haven for all types of Adventures...

Now it is your Party's turn to delve into the Dungeon of Arrengee...

[Neonivek]

You sure are Harvest Mooning there Neyvn

I am not QUITE sure what a watering can is made of really matters... I mean if each level determines what kind of irrigation system you are using.

[Neyvn]

You sure are Harvest Mooning there Neyvn

I am not QUITE sure what a watering can is made of really matters... I mean if each level determines what kind of irrigation system you are using.

Harvest Mooning ? Nooooooooooo............. Yeah ok I was... 'Fantasy Life' is next for the other professions they want to do Basically. I was trying to figure out what the Secondary Tool for Farmer would be and just stuck with Watering Can. Mainly to represent caring for the crops as they grow while the Primary Tool is there for the Planting and Harvesting parts. I couldn't really think of any other system other then using one that was already designed and worked well...

[Neonivek]

Ahh I see the old "I know it doesn't make that much sense, but it is better then making a new system for everything"

[Flying Dice]

There's also something I've encountered in the magic system. Between the miscellaneous nerfs and those done by way of the new Concentration mechanic, and a vastly smaller set of spells, there are actually relatively few spells worth taking. In 3.5/PF my usual problem with casters is narrowing my options, not digging up enough spells that aren't mehworthy or complete crap.

Quite a few of them are better then you would think due to how the system differs (Charm is a big one)

But the "I have to select the useful spells" comes from the fact that Wizards and Sorcerers aren't super duper broken.

Which is kind of the thing. You no longer are surfing through a sea of "Now how do I want to utterly trump this encounter" spells... or Spells that do more damage then the entire rest of your party combined... or spells that kill the entire enemy party instantly... or spells that make you immune to the encounter (hey Rope Trick).

I'll put it this way... 3.5 was built off of trying to negate the Wizard at all times. All bosses had to have magic resistance and any enemy worth his salt had magic immunity.

Wizards got changed to basically how sorcerers used to work, didn't they?

Wizards are still wizards but they are Wizards who can cast like Sorcerers.

If spells were as broken as they were in 3.5... Then goodness they would break the game over their knee.

---

I will say that Wizards in many ways feel "not as powerful" but I have no idea how they could have fixed that without just jumping back into 3.5s "Ha ha ha! my level 1 spell destroys you CR 100 encounter!"

Then again higher level Wizards are extremely powerful... So the fact that Wizards start off not feeling all that amazing and end up raining death down to the battlefield... Might actually work better.

But I never got to see a high level wizard.

In otherwords I feel like FlyingDice is right, but I think 3.5 did Wizards worse (they are fun! don't get me wrong. It just isn't fun to be the fighter standing beside a Wizard or the GM knowing that an encounter revolves entirely around a wizard). So the solution would have to be between 3.5 and 5e... Wizards feeling potent and powerful without being weak.

Honestly having Wizards have spells that take multiple rounds would be an elegant solution. As well Wizards could have had two levels of concentration... "Concentrate" and "Sustain" that way some spells could have been "sustained" without fear of them suddenly not working, while still not letting you stack a metric ton of spells.

For example... Spiderclimb? Sustained, making it concentrate weakens it vastly. Expeditious retreat? Concentration, it fits the moves theme since it is meant for you to retreat in.

Ee-eeh. *wobbles hand*

I meant more that in 3.5 and PF just about every level as an arcane caster presented you with more good choices than you could actually take. If you played a 3.5 Sorcerer with access to the Spell Compendium &c., you were genuinely pressed to decide what you wanted to blast with. A 3.5 Wizard had a deep, multipath build tree. You could sacrifice varying degrees of versatility in exchange for more spells. You had to bloody well think about the spells you prepared if your DM didn't softball everything, you might even have had to do research and conduct some divination before a delve or adventure.

In PF you had the same general sort of situation in regards to spells. Do you want to try to abuse Mount or take something less reliant on DM's tolerance for cheese? Which of the Summon Monsters do you take? When you get 2nd level spells, do you nab Levitate, False Life, or Mirror Image for defense? Burning Arc or Scorching Ray for blasting? Do you spring for the Flaming Sphere + Pyrotechnics combo? When you get 3rd level spells, do you want Stinking Cloud, Slow, Sleet Storm, or Ray of Exhaustion for CC? Stuff like that.

In 5e, there's only one flavor of Wizard: Vanilla, and it tastes like Sorcerer. You don't have to think about how you build your character (because you'll build it the same every time). You don't have to think about what spells you take (because most of them suck and the ones that don't stand out sharply). You don't have to think about which spells to prepare (because you'll barely have enough worth preparing and you're a sucker if you prepare more than one or two Concentration spells per spell level/something you can cast via Ritual).

Basically 5e removed most of the higher-level thought associated with playing a good Wizard (lowercase-good, natch), turned them into half-assed Sorcerers who've forgotten that they don't have more spells than Magic Batman, and then turned around and given Sorcerers sole access to metamagic, a good round of buffing, and core class features that aren't fucking boring.

tl;dr: You want to play an arcane caster in 5e? Play a Sorcerer. 1: They're fucking cool and arguably stronger than they were in PF (never mind 3.0 or 3.5, geez Louise). 2: They can have somewhat unique identities depending on whether you want to be as close to a half-dragon as you're likely to get, a pants-on head wild-eyed walking random effect table, or the D&D version of the second-coolest X-Man. 3: They get metamagic. Suck it, Wizards. 4: Limited number of good spells? Guess who can take most of the good ones and laugh at the chumps who gave up flight and metamagic for access to a few more C-raters.

Or a Warlock, I guess. Just prepare to have half the party dip it and overshadow you with your own core ability. 

[Neonivek]

Well

I guess it depends... You can be a Wizard and have all the spells

Or a Sorcerer and have a few spells

Anyhow Sorcerers are the Monks of the Arcane casters. They trade off versatility and "consistent" abilities for one off abilities.

As for the choices in 3.5 and how deep it was... Ehh you were just picking your poison.

Also don't forget that as much as you complain "You want to play an arcane caster in 5e? Play a sorcerer"... 3.5 it was "You want to be an arcane caster in 3.5? Be a Wizard, don't even bother with Sorcerers"... It was pathfinder that by far spruced up Sorcerers enough to make them worth playing over Wizards... and even then Wizards are still better.

In 5e Sorcerers are Alpha Damage and Wizards are Damage over time... In a long drawn out battle a Wizard beats a Sorcerer without even trying.

I really don't see the flat out "Sorcerers are better" aspect you see... maybe more interesting (afterall Sorcerers have a few more considerations to make battle to battle), but certainly not "obviously better".

[NullForceOmega]

Neo, FD, just a friendly remainder because this hasn't gotten out of hand yet, please refrain from comparing various editions on this thread.

Again, this is purely a friendly reminder, and you guys are fine, but version comparison is outside of this threads' scope.

[UXLZ]

I never did quite get input on if it was reasonable to hide skill check rolls from the players. (In particular Insight, Perception, Sleight of Hand and Deception.) I've decided that obfuscating attack rolls, damage rolls and the like is a bit unfair, but I do believe there is good reason for at least those four skills. Most of the others there's no real point - even if your exact roll for an athletics check was hidden the results are still immediate and obvious.

Also, where's 'dat Critonomicon stuff FD? :v

[Neonivek]

My general rule of thumb UXLZ is "If it is something someone would notice, do it publically" or "If it is something where failing would be obscured, you can do it hidden"

Doing anything as a hidden check is fine.

But my experience tells me that even when justified... most players loathe hidden checks or start acting incredibly paranoid when you start doing it.

[UXLZ]

I'm thinking of something like them Sleight of Handing something in or out of a guy's pockets and he notices but chooses not to react for whatever reason.

If they roll low, they're gonna be ridiculously suspicious if it still apparently goes off without a hitch. That's why I want to hide it, and I have to hide it all the time or they'll immediately know "Oh, here's a place where something special might happen" or hide it some of the time where it doesn't matter, and then they'll just be paranoid anyway.

As a player, I like it when the DM hides rolls from me. Then again, I'm also the kind of person that likes having contingencies for if my contingencies, and a plan Omicron in case plan RIII fails.

[NullForceOmega]

Well, like Neo said, that is likely to make them paranoid, but generally such activities should be conducted with a sense of paranoia.

In general I make my players roll for themselves, but I don't see any real problem with the kinds of rolls you suggested being made in secret.

[andrea]

I think hiding those rolls would work well. Keeps a sense of mystery which is appropriate.

[Flying Dice]

Yeah, Sleight of Hand and Deception I could easily see being hidden. Insight and Perception less so, because unless you just give flat "You see/hear/know/find/&c. nothing," you're going to end up more or less telling players that they failed anyways, which in turn means they'll keep trying. In situations where they knew they failed, they'd do so as well, but in situations where they got high rolls and still got nothing back they wouldn't if they could see the rolls because they'd know it was probably because there actually wasn't anything to be found (or it was behind a very high DC). In other words either it'll slow down play as everyone stops to make those checks a time or three just in case, or you're going to effectively tell them whether they succeeded or failed in the interest of not being boring (and possibly speeding things along).

I never did quite get input on if it was reasonable to hide skill check rolls from the players. (In particular Insight, Perception, Sleight of Hand and Deception.) I've decided that obfuscating attack rolls, damage rolls and the like is a bit unfair, but I do believe there is good reason for at least those four skills. Most of the others there's no real point - even if your exact roll for an athletics check was hidden the results are still immediate and obvious.

Also, where's 'dat Critonomicon stuff FD? :v

Herp forgot to send it. I'd be more circumspect, but frankly it's a rare out-of-print third party supplement published by a now-defunct company. >.>

_{The hunt consumes all.}

Neo, FD, just a friendly remainder because this hasn't gotten out of hand yet, please refrain from comparing various editions on this thread.

Again, this is purely a friendly reminder, and you guys are fine, but version comparison is outside of this threads' scope.

Apologies regardless, I was just trying to clarify and that conversation ended up traveling a bit far from where it began.