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[redwallzyl]

So this is starting to come up more and more in the USA recently with great debates around it with each side screaming at the other and predicting the end times as they do and with some recent developments like the one linked bellow I thought it appropriate to ask what Bay 12 thinks on the issue as you guys seem to be less, let’s say, childish about things and many aren't US citizens. Please keep it civil. i hope for some good discussion for a while but I won’t be too sad if another of my threads sinks in a day.

For reference for you non Americans the current minimum wage is $7.25 per hour set by the federal government with some states adopting higher rates. the average American household earns around $50,000 a year. Some math: working 8 hours a day every day for a year on minimum wage earns $21170 which btw is not enough to live on.




News stuff from various sites about the "wage war":
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-minimum-wage-hike-20150518-story.html#navtype=outfit&page=1
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/15/dc-labor-groups-embrace-fight-for-15-with-minimum-wage-push
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2015/04/the_fight_for_15_it_s_a_bad_idea_raising_the_minimum_wage_to_15_would_hurt.html
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/hey-washington-the-pay-is-too-damn-low-the-minimum-wage-war-20140227
http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/05/20/408026095/how-the-minimum-wage-debate-moved-from-capitol-hill-to-city-halls
http://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2015/01/01/for-first-time-majority-states-have-minimum-wage-above-federal-level/gHXDbdRcK2eoUKlflSxSUJ/story.html

here's also a video from john green if you like that sort of thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI9aDHLptMk

And also more informative stuff and things:

A bit of history: http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm
Graph of data about comparative purchasing power:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://www.hamiltonproject.org/files/downloads_and_links/state_local_minimum_wage_policy_dube.pdf

https://www.nelp.org/content/uploads/City-Minimum-Wage-Laws-Recent-Trends-Economic-Evidence.pdf

State by State(Big):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Levi]

So I'm totally for raising the minimum wage(as a Canadian who makes well above minimum wage).  I hear of 10 dollar minimum wage, 12 dollar, 15 dollar and that is all well and good, I see no downside.  What I wonder is exactly what would happen if the minimum wage was suddenly 50 dollars an hour. 

I think choosing an extreme example and trying to figure out what would happen might help illuminate the possible risks of raising the minimum wage. 

[SalmonGod]

Completely disregarding how it will effect the economic situation on a broader scale, because I expect that will be the primary topic:

I cannot understand the people who act as if the idea is a personal insult to them or an affront to morality.  Because I would expect that if someone actually wants the services that minimum wage earners provide (and most do - pay and importance to the basic functioning of society seem to be inversely correlated), that they would also want the people providing those services to be properly rewarded for it.  It's a complete non-sequitur to me that the exact opposite seems to be most common.

[Eagle_eye]

So I'm totally for raising the minimum wage(as a Canadian who makes well above minimum wage).  I hear of 10 dollar minimum wage, 12 dollar, 15 dollar and that is all well and good, I see no downside.  What I wonder is exactly what would happen if the minimum wage was suddenly 50 dollars an hour. 

I think choosing an extreme example and trying to figure out what would happen might help illuminate the possible risks of raising the minimum wage.

That doesn't really work though, because the downsides of raising the minimum wage are largely tied to the number of people whose wages are increasing. If the minimum wage is $50/hr, the vast majority of America is going to see a substantial raise, and there's going to consequently be inflation. When you're raising the wages of a few million people- and by a smaller amount-, the effect on inflation is basically negligible.

[Frumple]

Because I would expect that if someone actually wants the services that minimum wage earners provide (and most do - pay and importance to the basic functioning of society seem to be inversely correlated), that they would also want the people providing those services to be properly rewarded for it.  It's a complete non-sequitur to me that the exact opposite seems to be most common.

... it's pretty obvious that those sorts do want the people providing those services to be properly rewarded, and simply evaluate what is proper as being significantly lower than what you would, innit? S'in the general ideological space that doesn't consider minimum wage work to be "real" jobs, deserving of real (i.e. livable) pay. Fairly sure that's how I've heard it laid out in person when folks hewing to that spiel have actually laid it out.

Kinda' in line with the folks that believe stuff like working at walmart or a fastfood/restaurant joint is only for high school or college kids or somethin'.

[wierd]

It's simple-- Ego, and ego fulfillment.

"I went to college and spent lots of money, so I could get a job that isn't one of those bottom-tier jobs! That's why I deserve more money than the bottom tier job holders!"

Basically. 

The more specialized, the higher the pay, and the more distorted the view becomes.  Say, Doctors-- After spending more than 8 years in college, they spend another 4 at least doing their residency where they get worked like F-ing dogs, on call 24/7, but they make freaking BANK after that, and can command lots of respect through their profession.

Similar with attorneys. 

Both become HYPER specialized-- not just A doctor, or A lawyer-- they are an OBGYN, or an oncologist-- or they are an attorney specializing in patent law, or specializing in constitutional law-- whatever.

Somebody who can honestly do just about anything thrown at them, and do it well, but hasnt invested jillions of hours of their lives for a set of specific credentials will never get the pay that they are really worth. NEVER.  (If for no other reason, the HR drones hiring them will feel threatened by the fact that the person who lacks credentials is getting paid more than they are, based on the actual merits of their work.)

Instead, society creates a total strawman out of these people, claiming that the blue collar workers are ignorant dumbasses that cant tie their own shoes--- Yet, put most of those specialists anywhere near the kind of versatility and variety in daily tasks that those blue collar workers daily handle, and most would explode under the pressure, or perform horribly in comparison.

Really, it all just boils down to feeling justification for having taken the expense to try and "Rise above that".  When the "That" that they tried to rise above suddenly is coming up from below, it causes them to freak out. Instinctively, they try to shove the "that" back down again.

That's what you are seeing.

[SalmonGod]

It's one of those things where I can understand the explanation academically, but it just doesn't sink to the intuitive level.  Like I just cannot relate in the fucking slightest to the emotional reactions that I logically know are the cause of this behavior, and which fly right in the face of any consideration for the actual functioning and stability of society. 

If I want McDonald's food made and served to me, then I want McDonald's workers to be able to afford a decent standard of living while providing me those services.  Otherwise... how the fuck can I actually expect people to continue to provide me that service in the long term.  I don't even want to call this logic, because it's more fucking basic than that.  It's hard for me to believe that anyone who disagrees with this is even a thinking creature, and the fact that there's a debate over it at all makes my skin crawl.

[wierd]

Emotionally based reactionary decision making is, by definition, NOT rational, and NOT based on thought.

That's the disconnect.  This is about the preconceptions, and emotional reactions of specialized workers, trying to justify the expense they have incurred to "avoid" that kind of work.

Raising the minimum wage (without additionally raising wages globally) shortens the distance up the "ladder" they have gained for their trouble. This causes intense feelings of sour grapes.

The problem is that increasing all wages globally is functionally identical to just inflating the dollar-- there is no socioeconomic benefit.

Personally, I would say that the CORRECT course of action is not another hike in the min wage; it should instead by a serious bitch slapping of corporate america in general, so that ALL people get paid what they are ACTUALLY worth to their employers, based on some merit based figures, and not some figures pulled out of some asses-- with provisions to prevent profit dividends immediately going into upper teir management's greedy little pockets in the form of bonuses and the like.

But I would expect the min wage hike to be easier to implement than actual sweeping reform that is sorely needed.

[Arcvasti]

Alright, its way too late at night for me to think completely rationally about this and I'm not particularly versed in economic theory, so take this reflection with a grain of salt:

Alright. Let's say we have person working for minimum wage[I'll call them Marissa because why not]. Marissa doesn't get enough money because the large companies charge just enough to gouge the lower end of the economic spectrum while still being indispensable. Now let's say that minimum wage increases and Marissa would now make a livable amount of money. Yay, good laws. But... : To compensate for having to pay their employees more, as well as to take advantage of more money among the lower end of the economic spectrum, the big companies raise their prices. Despite Marissa making more money then before the minimum wage raise, they still don't make enough money because the large companies still charge just enough to gouge the lower end of the economic spectrum while still being indispensable. Net gain: Minimal.

Now, I have zero idea if it will actually work that way, but tired!me believes it is a possibility. If so, then just tossing more money at those who work for minimum wage won't help all that much.

[wierd]

That is actually pretty close to spot on.  That's why I advocated bitch slapping the corporations with laws that prevent them doing that, rather than just raising the min wage.

Historically, the US worker has seen a REDUCTION in buying power, COUPLED with a HUGE gain in financial might of their employers over the past century.  This is true across the board, with the exception of corporate board members and CEOs, who have made out like little bandits.

Introducing some actual merit based strategies into employment law for determining base pay would make lots of companies scream like they were being raped savagely by a tentacle monster, but it would neatly solve a significant amount of this problem.

[SalmonGod]

It ultimately has to come from profits and executive pay.  The lower classes are in so much financial trouble, because decades of quarterly profit growth has been achieved by finding more and more ways to squeeze money out of the middle and lower classes.  The only way to fix this without chasing our tails through an endless inflation cycle is by reversing the siphoning of wages into profits.  And if the executives and shareholders and politicians responsible have too much influence and disincentive to be convinced to do this, then I can't imagine a more plain indicator that shit is broken in deeper ways and requires more drastic measures (my personal belief).

Honestly, I think we'll see basic income before we'll see businesses give up executive wages and profits willingly, and it will take many, many riots and the death of the baby boomers before that will happen.

[WillowLuman]

The common counter-argument I see is "Small business can't afford to pay people more, so minimum wage increase would result in layoffs."

Personally, I would like to see an increase, but I am somewhat prejudiced, being a college student who will probably be working a min-wage job in the very near future.

[Orange Wizard]

muh capitalism

[LordBucket]

what Bay 12 thinks on the issue

I think raising the minimum wage is an excellent idea, because it will create additional pressure for companies to lay off workers and replace them with robots.

[i2amroy]

The more specialized, the higher the pay, and the more distorted the view becomes.  Say, Doctors-- After spending more than 8 years in college, they spend another 4 at least doing their residency where they get worked like F-ing dogs, on call 24/7, but they make freaking BANK after that, and can command lots of respect through their profession.

I'd like to note that the vast majority of doctors spend the next 25 to 40 years paying off the debt they accrued during those 12 years. I know one doctor who finally became debt free at the age of 48, and another whose 55th birthday present to himself was being debt free. They might make bank, but they're so deep in a hole that it generally takes them a long time to finally break even (and then they spend their last 30-40 years finally able to buy the fancy houses that we see most doctors living in).

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised to see fairly widespread support for this on Bay12, since in general we are a younger population and this is one of those issues that is semi-split down age lines.