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[LordArchibald]

For possible neutral or friendly aliens could have aliens that live in gas giants, possible that they could be within the empires borders for some time before they are even known to exist. An immediate thought on trade of gases for heavy elements comes to mind.

There is also the possibility of other human territories of whatever governmental type you like either already existing or springing from non governmental groups doing their own scouting and colonising, with any kind of relations from future peacefully joining empire world to ally to trade partner to mortal enemy depending on whatever variables desired.

Originally I planned to make just the player's Empire on the map with the rest of the planets empty or inhabited by various rebels, pirates and unaligned colonies of your race only. Your goal was to unite the galaxy (made of terrans only) and fend off invasions from another galaxy (so a mix between 4X, tower defence and social/political intrigue). But then I made these various coloured planets and these looked sooo cute I could not resist to populate the galaxy with native aliens
And that's when my consitent design went a bit of whacky and I try to tie it up since then

Definitely I still struggle to determine the real purpose and position of other races in the game. Could use some tips.

For snowballing have you considered that when sending more ships at the enemy along with more of your own ships suffering minor damage needing repair so having more ships unavailable for a while simply being deployed to a combat area is going to put more strain on the ships systems so will mean they need to dock up for maintenance earlier and more often so leaving you temporarily weaker at a possibly inopportune moment.

This often overlooked maintenance part of logistics can make for some nice problems or questions like do you send a really large fleet to make sure you win this battle and then have to repair and refit a significant portion of the fleet at once so having a time in which those ships can't react or a smaller fleet that should get the job done and not put such a strain on the maintenance docks.

There is also the question of if you even have sufficient maintenance and repair facilities in that part of your empire to send the big fleets let alone repair battle damage or does every ship cycling through the fleet have to fly several weeks/months/whatever to the battle area deploy for however long and then fly back for maintenance increasing the number of ships  needed to maintain a certain sized fleet? or if it is damaged so it can't make it back is it scuttled? making losses far from home more expensive or is it towed back by other ships increasing the number of ships needed again? or perhaps this is a question of if you win the battle as towing might be difficult when losing and as such losing when attacking could be really bad.

Before we start, a standard disclaimer. The game is singleplayer and asymmetric. So, aliens could (and even should) play by completelly different rules. So things like aliens having a single super ship the whole game or have a rule to never attack a planet starting with name "Z" is a valid option This allows interesting mechanics and snowballing protections that are unavailable in more traditional games. Just a thing to keep in mind.

Yeah, repair is something I need as the core. In order to make the player more bold (reward for risk taking) I from the start planned to make low combat casualities (most ships in combat would be damaged and rerouted for repairs instead of destroyed). At least for the player (aliens could just die instantly ).

Also, most likely repair will be free (just takes time: 1-5 turns + 1-2 turns for transfer). Probably there should be some repair capabilities (so in case of very big loses the repair facility get swamped and can't process all these ships at once), like 3x Industrial Capabilites (so you can repair ships 3 times more than you can produce). Repair would be separate from production.

Hmm, several races as inhabitants, that could lead to interresting mecanism.

Have you defined yet how it will work ?

• Will it have impacts on the planet ? (positive / negative)
• Are there any way to handle population migration / deplacement ?

Not sure that it would fit the game, but I could imagine synergies (positive or negative) between populations on the same planet, or even neighbouring planets...

You know, I would like to skip this issue for now. It's a secondary thing and I can do it much later.
For now I would prefer to concentrate on alien races (like dormant races, special races, strange races), combat and balance. These are the most pressing to me.

[flap]

[quote author=LordArchibald link=topic=150517.msg6276857#msg6276857 date=1433415909

Definitely I still struggle to determine the real purpose and position of other races in the game. Could use some tips.

[/quote]

Designing asymetric, yet interresting AI is definitelly an interresting challenge. But from your question, I also understand that you are still have to settle how they will interfere (in an interresting way) with the race against the clock to survive the end game. ?

For some AI, maybe could you take inspiration from AI War : fleet Command, where the AI is way more powerfull than you. So you have to stay low profile untill you can kill it straight away.
Maybe could there be one or two similar AI empires ? (Would it fit well with mecanism ?)

Also, is the role of the AI limited to slowing your expansion down ? Or would it also be to weaken or strengthen you for the end game ?

Other AI idea :
Military weak AI, but which corrupts your leaders, and favorises rebellion in conquerred or neighbouring worlds. They might also agree to sell you a world without the corruption effect in exchange of a number of ships. But this will strengthen their army...

[Retropunch]

I think having it completely asymmetric is a fantastic idea. I'd really suggest having the player as pretty low down the galactic food chain as I think that would make things way more interesting. I'm imagining that you've read the Ian M Banks Culture Series, so I'm taking some inspiration from their.

It'd be great to play as a young race working their way up to join the ranks of the 'involved' which could be 3-4 very powerful AI races (There also could be many other smaller races which you could either work with, assimilate or even destroy on your way to the top).

These 3-4 'involved' would be essentially far too powerful to take on or even anger until late in the game, giving the player something concrete to work towards (which is often lacking in 4x games). You would then have to barter, trade, steal and fight your way up the food chain until you had enough power to join their ranks. You could then either try to take them all over, or happily continue the game as one of the 'big players'.

What would really set this apart is if the diplomacy was good enough that you could really get involved in the galatic politics. Maybe you decide to become a vassal of one of the big 3, which would give you loads of benefits, but you'd have to do what they say. Perhaps you could try to sow dissent between them to get them to fight each other so you can pick over whats left of the carnage. Maybe one of these races would just decide that you've got to work for them.

All sorts of things could be possible with this setup, and it'd be completely different from other 4x games.

[LordArchibald]

Designing asymetric, yet interresting AI is definitelly an interresting challenge. But from your question, I also understand that you are still have to settle how they will interfere (in an interresting way) with the race against the clock to survive the end game. ?

For some AI, maybe could you take inspiration from AI War : fleet Command, where the AI is way more powerfull than you. So you have to stay low profile untill you can kill it straight away.
Maybe could there be one or two similar AI empires ? (Would it fit well with mecanism ?)

I have no problem with the weird races (like they enter via a rift from another dimension and want to kill everyone) but with the "standard" races that are native to the galaxy and are civilized.

As for AI War I definitely want a reversed feeling. *You* are the empire and you do not play low profile. That's one of the biggest issues I had with that game, the feeling of being pathetic and limiting yourself (but I liked the mechanic). Also, I want you to be the only space Empire, the others are just rebels, pirates, aliens that stay (or not) in your way.

Other AI idea :
Military weak AI, but which corrupts your leaders, and favorises rebellion in conquerred or neighbouring worlds. They might also agree to sell you a world without the corruption effect in exchange of a number of ships. But this will strengthen their army...

Reversed. Strong military AI but with corrupted politicians you can easily bribe (to make peace even through it's not in favour of that race) So, it would be quite cheap to alter the AI decision making to your favour.

I think having it completely asymmetric is a fantastic idea. I'd really suggest having the player as pretty low down the galactic food chain as I think that would make things way more interesting. I'm imagining that you've read the Ian M Banks Culture Series, so I'm taking some inspiration from their.

It'd be great to play as a young race working their way up to join the ranks of the 'involved' which could be 3-4 very powerful AI races (There also could be many other smaller races which you could either work with, assimilate or even destroy on your way to the top).

These 3-4 'involved' would be essentially far too powerful to take on or even anger until late in the game, giving the player something concrete to work towards (which is often lacking in 4x games). You would then have to barter, trade, steal and fight your way up the food chain until you had enough power to join their ranks. You could then either try to take them all over, or happily continue the game as one of the 'big players'.

What would really set this apart is if the diplomacy was good enough that you could really get involved in the galatic politics. Maybe you decide to become a vassal of one of the big 3, which would give you loads of benefits, but you'd have to do what they say. Perhaps you could try to sow dissent between them to get them to fight each other so you can pick over whats left of the carnage. Maybe one of these races would just decide that you've got to work for them.

All sorts of things could be possible with this setup, and it'd be completely different from other 4x games.

Completelly asymmetric... Hmmm, I don't deny it's a very appealing to me too (for different reasons ). But what about civilized races that live in the galaxy? Take a look at the screenshot, don't these colourful ownership markers on planets look cute? And the border skirmishes and the like, a lot of smaller and weaker entities makes a more fun warfare.

As for diplomacy, as stated above, I want you to feel like the Emperor. You being a vassal is out of the question. Others being your vassals is fine, you being one is out of the question.

As for late game and the like, I was thinking primarily of dangers outside the traditional balance of power. Things like primitive hostile aliens waking up, invasion from another dimension, rebels,  usurpers, military coup, pirates, warmachines from ancient era activating. Note all these can make you lose the game even if you conquered every single planet in the galaxy... So, the game does not need to rely on standard civilized races for balance & difficulty.

[flap]

Ok, so the design challenge is to create weaker, yet interresting aliens. You want us to fell powerfull...

Indeed, maybe would there be an opportunity for a reversed AI war : an apparently weak race, which gets dangerous without you noticing it. Striking it too early could be tedious, but too late and it might get dangerous...

[MarcAFK]

I love those placeholder graphics, looking forward to seeing how this develops.

[LordArchibald]

How about something like this:

The center of the galaxy is filled with small minor civilized races (player starts there too), the outskirts of the galaxy are filled by 3-4 major civilized races and special/weird races. Minor races are agressive and unstable, these will be conquered by the player or by other major races (some will survive independent I suppose). Major races are more about keeping the status quo and significantly less aggressive.

Gameplay flow (standard game):
1. First the player will carve the Empire out of the neighbour central minor races, other major races will expand at the expense of minor races too
2. The player (Empire) start to interact with major races and there will be struggle for the borders, also primitive hostile races (Parasites, the Hive) will start to be a problem, probably rebels will start operating at that time too
3. The Empire conquered a significant part of the galaxy, major races acknowledged the Empire being the "top dog", now the goal is to protect the galaxy from the Annihilartors that enter via trans dimensional rifts, after they are dealt with all local races acknowledges you the Emperor of the whole galaxy (win)

Diplomacy - you might have an option to incite uprising of minor races that were conquered by major races.

Major races & culture - There could be 5 major races (civilized): Empire (player), Rodent Monarchy, Reptile Republic, Collective, League. They exert "culture" (Empire, Monarchy, Republic, Collective, League), minor races do not exert culture, they are affected by it. Now each planet will have these cultures and the point is, if you conquered a planet and its dominanat culture is Empire, it's all right, the local aliens will accept your rule. And if some other major race conquered a planet with dominant Empire culture, you might make them try to rebel in order to join you (Empire).
The balance here is that the Empire is the most desirable in the eyes of aliens (you basicly want the aliens to work, pay taxes and obey the Emperor and they can do whatever they like - you don't want to assimilate them like Collective or make them serfs like Monarchy, etc), so, if you invested in it sufficiently you should be winning the cultural/political game, military game being another thing (major races are strong and they started earlier).

I love those placeholder graphics, looking forward to seeing how this develops.

Note: Depending on screen most are the final ones at that point (but again that depends on the screen, there is a mix of placeholders and final ones).

[Naryar]

A 4X with no micro isn't a 4X, i'm afraid.

Or you can put some parts of your empire under AI management to avoid micro and then promptly grow angry with the AI not doing things right, so you micro.

[Fayrik]

I know many people would disagree, I guess it is a personal feeling, but I HATE micomanagement

And post to watch!
I don't care if it's not strictly a 4X, what I really crave is a power simulator, where I don't have immediate and direct control over the small things, I love the idea of having to battle against internal politics as much as the regular, inter-empire politics.

So far, I'm absolutely loving your vision, so please stay true to it, and keep up these great updates.

[Retropunch]

A 4X with no micro isn't a 4X, i'm afraid.

Or you can put some parts of your empire under AI management to avoid micro and then promptly grow angry with the AI not doing things right, so you micro.

I couldn't disagree more. The 4 x's are 'eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, and eXterminate' and you can do those fully without micro. I do worry about having a lack of control though - things could easily be perceived as unfair by the player just because they haven't got as much hands on control.

My major concern though is about balance. It seems very much from what's been said that the player can expect to get into the final protection stage, but that may make the earlier game seem a bit hollow. Whilst players want to feel powerful, being too powerful is much less fun than having to struggle against the odds. I'm just cautioning against this as it isn't just an issue of number tweaking - if the goal of the game is to get into the 'protecting the galaxy' phase, you need to make sure that the early game is interesting or quick enough so that the player doesn't feel bogged down by it.
 

[LordArchibald]

A 4X with no micro isn't a 4X, i'm afraid.

Or you can put some parts of your empire under AI management to avoid micro and then promptly grow angry with the AI not doing things right, so you micro.

You forgot about the 3rd option What if you don't have the "Build a farm" button in the first place? You can't micro, even if you want to

It's not automation (optional AI replacement for human actions) but authonomy (task done by the AI only without the option for the human to access it). You might grow angry on your incompetent NPC governors all you want, but you can't do anything about it (except firing them so they are are replaced by other NPCs) That's the sad life of an Emperor, you can't do it yourself, you need to rely on your incompetent and corrupted henchmen who later backstab you and try to usurp the throne for themselves. Sigh... life of the Emperor is ungrateful and not easy for sure


BTW, here is a video explaining imperial officials:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvNzRLdOcTs

I know many people would disagree, I guess it is a personal feeling, but I HATE micomanagement

And post to watch!
I don't care if it's not strictly a 4X, what I really crave is a power simulator, where I don't have immediate and direct control over the small things, I love the idea of having to battle against internal politics as much as the regular, inter-empire politics.

So far, I'm absolutely loving your vision, so please stay true to it, and keep up these great updates.

Hmm, glad you like it, yeah, I always try to stay true to my original vision (in retrospection it makes a game better). But the temptation to stray from the path is strong, so it's important to tell the dev he is not the only one who believes in the original vision

My major concern though is about balance. It seems very much from what's been said that the player can expect to get into the final protection stage, but that may make the earlier game seem a bit hollow. Whilst players want to feel powerful, being too powerful is much less fun than having to struggle against the odds. I'm just cautioning against this as it isn't just an issue of number tweaking - if the goal of the game is to get into the 'protecting the galaxy' phase, you need to make sure that the early game is interesting or quick enough so that the player doesn't feel bogged down by it.

Well, the idea is you are powerfull (technically) or at least big. But it does not mean less problems. The original plan was to portrait the struggle of a big empire. So what if you have the most planets if you have to crush rebels and deal with other internal problems, governors steal planetary funds all the time, officers plan a coup, you had to replace your poison tester third time this month and so on so on.

For balance I plan to make the player have 50 planets by turn 100 (standard scenario, in other scenarios you start with 100+ planets under control). So the beginning would be definitely about rapid expansion (even to an extend that if you don't get these 50 planets by the deadline your own people would dispose you from the office and get a more competent Emperor). So, I don't think that part would be boring Generally, I start to think that "stages of the gameplay" would be good, like first "you build the empire" (require 50 planets and ambassades on all major races homeworlds) then you move on to "balance of power" (become acknowledged by other major races, get 200+ planets and 500+ prestige) and then "become protector of the galaxy" (fend off invasion of transdimensional aliens), or something like that.
Also a balancing twist, the game first would push you to get these 50-100 planets as fast as you could and then discourage you from getting more after 200-300 planets so you don't have an incentive to get all the planets in the galaxy (which would be boring and overused).

[flap]

These different stages sound interresting. But you would to be carefull them not to be just a mandatory tedius part which don't have much impact in the future.

For example if most of the time, by the end of those 50 first turns your empire looks the same (more or less 100 planets), then it is not very interresting.
But if those early turns have a dramatic impact on the rest of the game, opening entirelly different path, now it becomes very interresting. Maybe the way you have dealt with your early neighbours could totally change your late empire physionomy (maybe through technology path opened you got from partnerhsips with aliens, long term alliance,...).
The way you explained it, I am coming to think of those early game turns as character building in a RPG... Is that what you are planning ?

EDIT : as a side note, will there be only one viable strategy (/path) or will we have different choices ?
If you have played Royals   there are at least 5 very different path to win (ranging from the warmonger destroying and conquering everything, the tycon buying everything, to the developper turtling in its place and growing a powerfull economy)

[Retropunch]

These different stages sound interresting. But you would to be carefull them not to be just a mandatory tedius part which don't have much impact in the future.

For example if most of the time, by the end of those 50 first turns your empire looks the same (more or less 100 planets), then it is not very interresting.

This is my fear - having a stage of the game that you just have to kinda 'get through' before you can get to the good stuff gets kinda annoying, especially if it's pretty straight forward/not too taxing. I completely get that you're wanting the game to be about the cool endgame, but as flap says, unless you've got concrete ways of making the build up to 100 or so planets very interesting and meaningful, then I'd let the player just start at the point.

[mainiac]

Kind of weird that there's no women in this universe.

[Mephansteras]

Looks interesting. I need to do a proper read through of the thread at some point, so PTW for now.