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Author Topic: Anyone else remember that economy thing? Yeah ... (DFHacking gone wrong)  (Read 14665 times)

Severedicks

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Re: Anyone else remember that economy thing? Yeah ... (DFHacking gone wrong)
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2015, 08:56:59 am »

So am I.
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Timeless Bob

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Re: Anyone else remember that economy thing? Yeah ... (DFHacking gone wrong)
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2015, 11:21:21 am »

An idea about the coins value as a credit: Suppose all of the materials in an embark is counted by the Mountainhome as a negative credit based on the absolute value of said items, (say 5 credits of debt = 1 embark point).  The purpose of the economy, and of taxing, is to first pay back the Mountainhome for the expense of the expedition, then to create a positive balance with the Mountainhome by selling them minted coins.  The bookkeeper would still be keeping track of the accrued wealth of each dwarf, but the coins would be shuffled off with each year's merchants.

If shares in the total Fortress wealth were shared with guilds based on the total hours of work done by all the dwarves in the fortress that month, and therefore passed along to the dwarves of each guild, such that they could then use those shares as the currency for room, board and luxury items present in the fortress.  Dwarves with unspent shares could then use them to place orders with the Merchants coming from the Mountainhomes, and thereby aquire stuff that is on their personality's "likes" list.

The entire purpose of an economy is to create a system built to allocate limited resources.  This is why rarity increases the value of something up so high, while something available to all is also usually very very cheap.  Goods will therefore cost the time required to produce it, plus the cost of its materials.  However, depending on how rare the available time to produce these goods is, will make the item more or less rare, and therefore multiply its value using straight supply and demand values.  If the supply of alcohol or food decreases below the demand for it from the local population, that is the threshold where the price to acquire each new drink and meal will increase.

However, the goal of the economy should be a system that maximizes overall dwarven happiness.  This should be much more easily catered to, since the moods of all the dwarves is easily monitored.  The "happiness index" of a fortress, would then measure how robust its economy is, which would guide the decisions for guilds who would also be monitoring it's member's happiness levels and pop mandates when a guildmember's happiness went below a certain threshold.  The reason for the economy, therefore, would be to help the Overseer create a more successful fortress.

A thought about the thresholds: they should be raised each time the fortress increments up one civilization level: Outpost-->Village-->Town-->City-->Mountainhome.  The "poverty standard" (ie, the point at which negative thoughts begin occuring due to not having enough), should increase in value for each increment.  This would simulate the very real modern equivalent of first, second and third world expectations, where the poverty in one culture is the palace in another.  Also, Well established guilds in a Mountainhome may become lucrative enough to gamble on founding new outposts of their own, which creates a cycle of value from the other side, as merchants arriving to the Mountainhome could be bringing tributes from those outposts who are themselves paying off their debts and sending coins and goods back to the guilds that sent them, to be sold at an inflated price in the Mountainhome, according to the current market.  Sounds like some wonderful end-game fun eh?

This text: http://www.econ.canterbury.ac.nz/personal_pages/bob_reed/econ3003/book/area1c2.htm might be of use, if you like.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 11:42:07 am by Timeless Bob »
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jason0320

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Re: Anyone else remember that economy thing? Yeah ... (DFHacking gone wrong)
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2015, 09:00:43 am »

Is this still going or not?
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CulixCupric

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Re: Anyone else remember that economy thing? Yeah ... (DFHacking gone wrong)
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2015, 01:50:02 pm »

This could work, I'd suggest trying not to tie it to gold coins but instead simmulate a dematerialized system that assumes that Dwarves write down their accounts. The economy caused tons of stacks of 1 coins and killed fps. Perhaps you could mint coins and have a 'store coins in vault' job that destroys the coin stack and put that into the account.

The civil service and child care ideas are particulary nice. I'll watch this closely, this is cool.
this. If all the coins were stored together, and dwarves just had notes listing their wealth, like a checkbook or bank notes, then they would never need touch the coins, they would just abstractly have paper money representing how much cash they own. It would mimic actual economies until the gold standard was dissolved and salvage FPS.
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Khalvin

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Re: Anyone else remember that economy thing? Yeah ... (DFHacking gone wrong)
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2015, 06:45:11 pm »

Perhaps we should have a 'vault' structure that acts in that purpose.

It would be neat if it could be robbed by thieves and 'broken' by construction wreckers.

When broken, rather then drop it's stored coinage it acts as bin for its wealth. Coins remain abstract until withdrawn by The bank-dwarf or stolen by a thief.

The bank-dwarves just keep a ledger of the fortress' accounts in their offices.
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Pseudo

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Re: Anyone else remember that economy thing? Yeah ... (DFHacking gone wrong)
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2015, 08:05:14 am »

Why not "simply" have dwarves create low-priority jobs to combine partial stacks of coins they own? (I am aware this is not simple.)

I like the idea of physical coinage - it's just that dwarves wouldn't recombine stacks that was the problem, IIRC.
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Re: Anyone else remember that economy thing? Yeah ... (DFHacking gone wrong)
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2015, 09:34:05 am »

That's...  Not possible, IIRC. That would require Toady's efforts.
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lethosor

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Re: Anyone else remember that economy thing? Yeah ... (DFHacking gone wrong)
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2015, 09:56:39 pm »

Combining stacks with DFHack is possible, and creating jobs is somewhat possible (see diggingInvaders), although it may be horribly broken as of 0.40.20. (I fixed a workflow issue recently, although that involved issues with not cleaning up after suspended jobs correctly, so newly-created jobs might not run into issues.) I don't know if DFHack research has uncovered anything about priorities, though.
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DFHack - Dwarf Manipulator (Lua) - DF Wiki talk

There was a typo in the siegers' campfire code. When the fires went out, so did the game.

Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Anyone else remember that economy thing? Yeah ... (DFHacking gone wrong)
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2015, 04:27:35 pm »

You can really combine stacks? And it checks to make sure they're identical? And it doesn't alter quality, subtype, material?

How?!?!
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
Quote from: Salvané Descocrates
The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
Sigtext!

lethosor

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Re: Anyone else remember that economy thing? Yeah ... (DFHacking gone wrong)
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2015, 05:02:43 pm »

Well, you have to account for all of that yourself too. The simplest way is to increase the stack size of one item and delete the other item - I think there are combine_drinks and combine_plants scripts that do this in DFHack 0.40.24-r5, if you're interested.
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DFHack - Dwarf Manipulator (Lua) - DF Wiki talk

There was a typo in the siegers' campfire code. When the fires went out, so did the game.

Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Anyone else remember that economy thing? Yeah ... (DFHacking gone wrong)
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2015, 05:05:35 pm »

Oh. Well, that won't work for automatic reactions. I don't think. :(

Still, good to know!
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Quote from: King James Programming
...Simplification leaves us with the black extra-cosmic gulfs it throws open before our frenzied eyes...
Quote from: Salvané Descocrates
The only difference between me and a fool is that I know that I know only that I think, therefore I am.
Sigtext!

palu

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Re: Anyone else remember that economy thing? Yeah ... (DFHacking gone wrong)
« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2015, 12:54:36 pm »

How's this doing?
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