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[wierd]

The same could be said of something like OpenMW, which seeks to create an alternative engine to older gamebryo/netimmerse games.

Also, your prior argument about the commons not creating culture is false.

Even in your own homeland, the story of say-- Baba Yaga, is so old, NOBODY knows who told it first. We DO know when it was first published in a copyrighted volume though-- the story is far older, and the publisher did not write it.  It became popular through massive proliferation in the public common as a folk tale.

[Retropunch]

On the contrary. I fully understand how long and hard those studios work.  I also know how little they work to shut down a rival work with just as much effort put in, by claiming a property right.

Here's one off the top of my head.

https://www.wired.com/2009/05/square-enix-kills-near-complete-chrono-trigger-fan-project/
(5 years investment by the team, very nice quality product axed, because "MINE MINE MINE!")

I wasn't arguing that point at all - yeah, game companies are extremely up tight about their IP, sometimes way too overzealous, but it is what they live and die by.

What I was contesting was your position that modder's effort/man hours 'can greatly exceed' the effort of professional studios, which simply isn't the case. No mod is going to have 80 people working full time on something for years.

As an example, in the Chrono Trigger game you quoted as being of particularly high standard, it was three people working on it in their spare time for 4 years. Quite a difference from 80 people for four years full time.

[wierd]

Which is Bethesda doing something OTHER than going "MINE MINE MINE" and shutting it down.

Square Enix could have done something similar with the CT project cited earlier, and stated that the team can continue if they license exclusively with them in exchange for use of the lifted content (Square Enix is/was a publishing house as well as a studio)-- the project could have gone forward, Square would have profited for pennies, the public would have gotten the product, and the team would have had their dreams realized.

But NO.

"MINE MINE MINE"

Retropunch:

Sarcastic remark:
How many hours of the studio worker's time is tied up in monotonous meetings, and being told to redo assets because 'reasons' from marketing?

(Or, why Duke Nukem Forever took over a decade to produce a substandard game.)

[wierd]

Considering that Bethesda's parent company sued the maker of Minecraft for creating an indie game called "Scrolls", which had no content connection with The Elder Scrolls at ALL----

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/03/12/mojang-and-zenimax-settle-scrolls-lawsuit

That fact that OpenMW outright references Bethesda property gives them more standing than they did against Mojang.

[wierd]

And nothing in 'scrolls' references zenimax property either.

[wierd]

The case in question centered around a claim filed by Zenimax, that their use of the word "Scrolls", in "The Elder Scrolls" had given the word a new, and specific meaning which could be confusing to the public.

https://secureyourtrademark.com/can-you-trademark/common-words-phrases/

This is of course, absurd-- since unlike the mentioned "Apple" trademark, where the term really does specify an origin for a product-- EG, an Apple Computer-- this particular use was in relation to the generic, coiled papyrus forebear of the modern codex. EG, "Scroll" as in "Dead sea scroll" or the kind you would find in the library of alexandria.  Not the IP of Zenimax, and was not in any way levering their mark.

So no. No standing there, really, aside from a conjecture that was meritless, which is why they settled.

[Sergarr]

Also, your prior argument about the commons not creating culture is false.

Okay, let's look at the counter-argument, then.

Even in your own homeland, the story of say-- Baba Yaga, is so old, NOBODY knows who told it first. We DO know when it was first published in a copyrighted volume though-- the story is far older, and the publisher did not write it.  It became popular through massive proliferation in the public common as a folk tale.

We don't know who told Baba Yaga, yes. This means that it could be either done for a "public common", or it could've been done for an ancient rich person. Since we don't know the reason why it was created, there's no way to know. Which means, that this is not technically a counter-argument against that "public common doesn't create culture".

However, you have a point, and it's why I've said that it's mostly created by rich people. There are exceptions like folk stories and such.

Which is Bethesda doing something OTHER than going "MINE MINE MINE" and shutting it down.

Square Enix could have done something similar with the CT project cited earlier, and stated that the team can continue if they license exclusively with them in exchange for use of the lifted content (Square Enix is/was a publishing house as well as a studio)-- the project could have gone forward, Square would have profited for pennies, the public would have gotten the product, and the team would have had their dreams realized.

But NO.

"MINE MINE MINE"

They have full legal rights to do so, you know. That's what property rights mean. You own things, you get full rights to utilize them in any way you want, and full rights to allow or disallow others to utilize them. These lawfully-given rights are the very foundation of our free world civilization, and they form the basis behind its high economical effectiveness and stability, which allows it to overpower and outlast the tyrannical autocracies, thus defending you, a citizen of the civilized world, from the oppressive yoke of the many, many would-be-dictators, who want to enslave you and turn you into an instrument for carrying out their evil plans.

[wierd]

Folk tales were told as cautionary tales, and for the entertainment of local children. The value of their telling was in keeping children safe. (EG, stay out of the forest, or a scary old woman flying on a giant pestle will eat you.)

We know they were NOT initially created for local lords, because of things like the Brother's Grimm compendium. THAT *WAS* comissioned by a local lord, to collect and preserve the local folk tales already in circulation.

So BZZT.

[Gentlefish]

Folk tales were told as cautionary tales, and for the entertainment of local children. The value of their telling was in keeping children safe. (EG, stay out of the forest, or a scary old woman flying on a giant pestle will eat you.)

We know they were NOT initially created for local lords, because of things like the Brother's Grimm compendium. THAT *WAS* comissioned by a local lord, to collect and preserve the local folk tales already in circulation.

So BZZT.

...What's your argument here, again? That no one should have to pay for anything ever so as to "grow culture"?

Paid mods are weird, sure, but in theory I'm mostly fine with them. Where I have a problem with it, is when it's only paid mods.I'm fine with some people asking for some money for a pretty baller mod, or saying hey donate if you like it. It's the choice there that's important.

[wierd]

The closest thing we have to the folk tales of history, are modern meme images.

However, mods are perfectly capable of being far better vehicles, but we are hell bent on preventing that.

[Sergarr]

Folk tales were told as cautionary tales, and for the entertainment of local children. The value of their telling was in keeping children safe. (EG, stay out of the forest, or a scary old woman flying on a giant pestle will eat you.)

We know they were NOT initially created for local lords, because of things like the Brother's Grimm compendium. THAT *WAS* comissioned by a local lord, to collect and preserve the local folk tales already in circulation.

So BZZT.

That's what I've said, yes.

The closest thing we have to the folk tales of history, are modern meme images.

However, mods are perfectly capable of being far better vehicles, but we are hell bent on preventing that.

"Far better vehicles" for what, spreading cautionary tales?

[Putnam]

Yeah, this is getting way out of my realm of comprehension and I'm the closest thing to wierd's ideal mod developer who shares tools among the community etc. in this conversation.

[wierd]

Look, I just get really upset/triggered at the hoarding of things that are beneficial to society when they are shared freely.

Too many people wanting to charge 400$ for an epi-pen, not enough Jonas Salks. (and doubly so, when it costs 0$ to mass replicate the pen, like is the case with software, and art.)

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Mods are supposed to be made in people's spare time. For fun. Why would I pay for that?

[wierd]

Because of some hypothetical, made up situation where a mod maker wants to quit their day job, and then make a living making mods.

Because nothing takes the love out of something like doing it for money. Clearly.