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Author Topic: Paid Mods -- Round 4: McGregor vs mAAAyweather  (Read 100686 times)

Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #735 on: February 13, 2017, 11:31:15 am »

Honestly, I don't see what makes paid mods such a big deal.  If you don't like it, you really don't have to do anything of the sort.

Especially bugfix mods - they're practically entirely scenes a faire in their entirety.

Also, yes, independent creation is a copyright defense.

There was some concern about mods based off of existing properties, such as Lord of the Rings and Star Wars, that would have brought trouble.  Just slapping down a variable 'donate' button could help dodge those issues and prevent the clusterfuck that occurred last time.
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Neonivek

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #736 on: February 13, 2017, 11:32:10 am »

So complain about how they're doing it before they actually launch the thing?  So they fix it?

I am confused as what you are saying is completely logical...

Like... why would I wait until after the proposed system is released before caring about it?

John Valve: "Ohh we are going to make it law that anyone who wears a parka gets shot. That way people won't overheat in the summer. Plus I the lawmaker will earn a dollar everytime it occurs."

Me: "No, that is a terrible idea!"

Person: "WHOA! We haven't implemented it yet... Lets see where it is going. Think about all those poor homeless people overheating."

Me: "But... We know the system... as well it doesn't help the homeless as much as you think."

Person: "But have we seen the results? No"

Quote
For mods it's apparently a straight 24 hours from purchase.  Which is sorta better and worse, of course, but I think appropriate

WOW! that is broken! Especially for anyone who has used mods before.
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Neonivek

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #737 on: February 13, 2017, 11:37:03 am »

Do they have anything that forces the modder to keep up with the game version?

I mean IMAGINE if a game developer released an expansion pack...

Then updated the main game which broke the expansion pack... and was like "LOL! We keep your money!"
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Retropunch

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #738 on: February 13, 2017, 11:37:35 am »

As I said I have no issue with paid mods.

But Valve's attempt stinks of them trying to make money off the communities mods while screwing over the community... fully knowing that...


It doesn't just stink of that - it is that. I absolutely hate that they're trying to make it sound like modders are crying out to be paid or somehow not producing content as they can't get paid - modding has always been a labour of love, and they're just trying to capitalise that as they can see downloads they can't monetise.

The big problem is, as Flying Dice said, the reuse of free stuff in paid mods. The amount of work needed in some mods is generally quite low (it's just a good idea), so I can basically just make exactly the same thing, repackage it up a bit, and then put it out with a different name and sell it. Within a few days Steam was just overrun with this last time they tried it.

Similarly, content control is literally impossible. A refund system works to an extent, but what if it breaks your saves/mangles everything up? who's responsible then?

It's seriously just an awful cash grab, and I can see no possible way they can make it work.

So complain about how they're doing it before they actually launch the thing?  So they fix it?

They've already tried it - it was awful. It's not like people are just speculating.

As for their implementation, anyone have a link to details on what they're changing from last time?
They haven't made any clear indications. I think they're probably going to tie it into a big launch with paid mod support built in:
http://www.pcgamer.com/valve-modders-absolutely-need-to-be-paid/
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Neonivek

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #739 on: February 13, 2017, 12:03:57 pm »

Also I am going to impart people here with some SUPER SECRET knowledge.

There is actually a system current in place that pays mod creators with money.

It discourages abandonment or non-support for the mod.

And encourages quality, basically having quality assurance

Best of all... Valve gets none of this money so there is absolutely no conflict of interest.

AND it has been in place for over a year now.

---

So yeah... Modders are currently making money.

So... Who does this new system support? Ohh right... Shovel Ware and Valve.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 12:09:43 pm by Neonivek »
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heydude6

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #740 on: February 13, 2017, 12:17:11 pm »

I'm just going to leave this video over here.
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Neonivek

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #741 on: February 13, 2017, 12:20:00 pm »

I'm just going to leave this video over here.

I don't check links I don't know what is in them. What is this?
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misko27

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #742 on: February 13, 2017, 12:24:31 pm »

I'm just going to leave this video over here.

I don't check links I don't know what is in them. What is this?
Unrelated, but you should get that extension "Youtube Title Viewer" if you don't want to check links. I can tell without looking that that is a link to a video called "Mod Monetization Madness." It's really very convenient.
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Neonivek

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #743 on: February 13, 2017, 12:26:54 pm »

Yes but what is it about?

Typically in a thread like this... it is probably like those Steam videos that depict game developers as saints and their consumer base as demons.
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heydude6

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #744 on: February 13, 2017, 12:29:18 pm »

I'm just going to leave this video over here.

I don't check links I don't know what is in them. What is this?

It's a video made by a youtuber named SuperBunnyHop that discusses Valve's payed mods as well as the affect it had on the modding community. At the end, he also includes suggestions for paid mod systems that aren't as awful as the one valve originally rolled out with.

It's a good video, the guy is pretty intelligent. You guys should watch it.
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Sergarr

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #745 on: February 13, 2017, 12:30:53 pm »

And people steal your work, sell it as their own, then exploit the system to stop you from doing anything about it.
Pretty hard to do that unless the original mod creator screwed up the license agreement. And really, it's only a problem until everyone adapts to the new system, closing all those loopholes. Sure, it'll be painful for a while, but after that, the quality of the mods will rise, and probably quite a bit above the previous bar.

There's a lot of similarity between this and the communist-capitalist shock therapy process that countries like Poland, Estonia, Latvia and others undertook.
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Frumple

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #746 on: February 13, 2017, 12:31:27 pm »

Honestly, I don't see what makes paid mods such a big deal.  If you don't like it, you really don't have to do anything of the sort.
Eh. The deal for me is that they've pretty persistently, in most attempts to implement them, just kinda' destroyed or severely damaged whatever content creation community may have existed, or more or less crippled whatever was trying to grow. We have past attempts at the concept and we know pretty solidly it's bad for content creation in general -- possibly the closest thing to an exception is with strictly cosmetic mods, and even that's iffy depending on how much the work involve interacts with other portions of the game engine.

Specific modders may come out better, but the mod scene for any particular game tends to come out notably worse, and modders on the net tend to suffer from it since a lot of what makes it easier for people to get into modding (other mods, that are largely open to perusal, and a community of modders that don't have terribly strong reasons to keep people from entering the metaphorical market) gets stuck behind paywalls. You end up with less mods and less modders, and in general because of that, even if the fewer ones have more motivation the quality of work on the whole drops; mod communities live and die based on how many people are working in them, and what's coming out of that shakespearian typing monkey environment. Usually, with these kinds of efforts, one superlative creator is still going to be outdone by a couple dozen mediocre one banging their heads together and gluing whatever falls out into pretty shapes. Problem with paywalls is it does a lot to depress or prevent those couple dozen's communal headbanging (by locking inspirational code behind costs, by adding heaps of legal concerns, by hard spiking elitism issues, and so on, and so forth), and that is very much something the players and most mod creators don't want at all.

... we also have a very simple and much less troublesome way of giving modders some monetary appreciation, without nearly as much of mess as comes with actual paywalls: We call it a donate button.

So what you have is something that we've had demonstrated repeatedly is bad for, at least, both players and mod makers, and we have an alternative that incentivises pretty much everything that something does, without nearly as many of the problems associated with it. Means when someone tries to implement the former, people tend to view it as pretty sketchy. You have someone that's coming in and trying to damage a mod community, when they have an obvious alternative that will not do that, at the absolute least to nearly the same extent.
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Neonivek

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #747 on: February 13, 2017, 12:34:02 pm »

More than the Donate button

Patreon works very well for modders to the extent that I bet most people here aren't even aware of which mods they use actually have patreon (For example I know a few of my Xcom 2 and Rimworld mods have one)
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Retropunch

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #748 on: February 13, 2017, 12:53:46 pm »

... we also have a very simple and much less troublesome way of giving modders some monetary appreciation, without nearly as much of mess as comes with actual paywalls: We call it a donate button.

So what you have is something that we've had demonstrated repeatedly is bad for, at least, both players and mod makers, and we have an alternative that incentivises pretty much everything that something does, without nearly as many of the problems associated with it. Means when someone tries to implement the former, people tend to view it as pretty sketchy. You have someone that's coming in and trying to damage a mod community, when they have an obvious alternative that will not do that, at the absolute least to nearly the same extent.

It's the most straightforward way, but they know that they'll be nothing like the amount of revenue generated from it. More than that, it's difficult for Steam to take a cut and still pretend to be righteous about everything on donations. They also know that the vast majority of people will donate elsewhere if they know Steam is taking a cut.

The other thing about paid mods is that it locks people into Steam further. If you've got a paid mod, you're only going to put it on the steam workshop otherwise it's not going to work. Steam knows that, and it therefore edges out stuff like GoG because they'll either need to do a costly mod hosting comparative site, or just lose out because paid mods are only accessible through Steam.

Genuinely though, I think it'll just crash hard whatever they do. Probably it'll just end up that a few of the 'big mod' developers that are hand picked (Long War for example) will end up having what is essentially paid for DLC, whilst other mods will continue as normal. It'll wreck the scene, as they'll have to put even more clauses in to stop people competing with their bastardised DLCmod hybrids.
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Rolan7

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #749 on: February 13, 2017, 12:57:56 pm »

More than the Donate button

Patreon works very well for modders to the extent that I bet most people here aren't even aware of which mods they use actually have patreon (For example I know a few of my Xcom 2 and Rimworld mods have one)
You're saying Patreon works so well that we often use mods without being aware they're on Patreon.  That sure works for *us*, but what about the modders?
And like Putnam said in the WTF thread, he never got donations through his link.  (Though not to misrepresent him, he was vehemently against paid mods on Steam).

Fact is, some modders want to sell their work.  The *best* arguments start at "But we shouldn't let them sell through Steam, because X consequences".  The worst arguments are "Modding is a labor of love!" and "Steam just wants money!", because that implies content creators don't deserve a choice.
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