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Author Topic: Paid Mods -- Round 4: McGregor vs mAAAyweather  (Read 102416 times)

Leyic

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #705 on: April 28, 2015, 09:56:06 pm »

Commissioned modding != direct marketing.
Those commissioned mods are going to be sold to consumers in a direct fashion at some point.

leyic--  ever seen an NDA? <snip>
I already said an NDA represents a contract therefore contract law takes priority. Barring students signing into any contractual obligations, no teacher has a legal expectation that they will receive compensation from their students as said students use knowledge taught to them by said teacher. That is as true for modding as it is for anything else.

If you want to make 100% of the work in a TC mod, or pay somebody to work on that mod for you, and use works for fire, I have no problem with you direct selling it. Just dont steal community knowledge or assets to do it. Do your own work, and keep it chaste.
(Emphasis mine.) As I said previously, knowledge once taught cannot be stolen. Unless the publisher or community makes every new modder and resource/utility maker sign a contract saying they will not profit from knowledge learned within the community, what you are suggesting is impossible and has no legal standing.

wierd

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #706 on: April 28, 2015, 09:59:49 pm »

Implied contractual agreements can and do hold weight in courtrooms.

Commisioned works:

The creator is not the owner of commissioned works. Read up on Works for Hire.

Works created under contract are the property of the contract holder, not of the artist or physical creator. That is why music artists do not own the copyrights of their songs, when they use a recording label. They are employed by the recording label, and the works are owned by the recording studio.

In this circumstance, if Bethesda comissioned a mod from a modder, Bethesda would 100% own the mod, and thus could market it however they liked. The modder however, is compensated at the time of creation with his or her paycheck.

Direct marketing does not use a distributor. The creator is the distributor. The mod creator is VERY unlikely to get commercial distribution rights from Bethesda without paying bethesda a significant (like, say-- 40%? wink wink) cut of the transaction.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 10:18:15 pm by wierd »
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Leyic

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #707 on: April 28, 2015, 10:25:00 pm »

Where is the implied contractual agreement that by learning something from someone the student will not use the knowledge for profit?

A community curated system would still see the modders responsible for their own marketing.

Putnam

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #708 on: April 28, 2015, 10:27:19 pm »

If I understand you right, you're suggesting that a thief could steal someone's code and post it for sale on Steam, and if the creator didn't bring a suit within three years (longer than Steam has existed), they would be able to continue violating that copyright indefinitely. 

Steam has existed for over a decade. The steam workshop is a bit more recent, but AFAIK it's been 3 years by now.

wierd

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #709 on: April 28, 2015, 10:29:43 pm »

In the old days, people ASKED permission to use other people's mods, leyic.  Like that archived page of my discussion with manauser on breaking the font format? I distinctly remember when the creator of that page created that archival copy of the forum, when bethesda was migrating to a new forum technology platform, and the old forums were going to find the bit dumpster.  He wanted to know if he could replicate our conversation in an archive. Myself and Manauser agreed that he could, as long as it was for non commercial purposes.

That archive was then retained, and used after that fact as the archival copy of the exchange that documents the file format, which was used to create new tools. The license for which that replication was permitted is viral. That is where the implied contract for MY work comes from.

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Leyic

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #710 on: April 28, 2015, 10:39:50 pm »

In the old days, people ASKED permission to use other people's mods, leyic.  Like that archived page of my discussion with manauser on breaking the font format? I distinctly remember when the creator of that page created that archival copy of the forum, when bethesda was migrating to a new forum technology platform, and the old forums were going to find the bit dumpster.  He wanted to know if he could replicate our conversation in an archive. Myself and Manauser agreed that he could, as long as it was for non commercial purposes.

That archive was then retained, and used after that fact as the archival copy of the exchange that documents the file format, which was used to create new tools. The license for which that replication was permitted is viral. That is where the implied contract for MY work comes from.
Why are we talking about specific mods now? You brought up "community knowledge", which is what I've been referring to. Under my understanding, "community knowledge" is much, much broader than specific mods.

Furthermore, isn't a spoken contract explicit? Besides which given this is the internet-of-old you're talking about, that communication was probably typed, thereby resulting in a written agreement. Nevertheless, your work does not encompass all learning.

wierd

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #711 on: April 28, 2015, 10:45:09 pm »

Because that kind of arrangment was the NORM, and NOT the exception, Leyic.

For instance, NIFLA's primary PURPOSE for existing! It was LITERALLY the Net Immerse Format Liberation Association--- A group DEDICATED to creating non commercial availability of the most deepest inner workings of the netimmerse engine and file formats.

http://www.mwmythicmods.com/Archives/CS/NIFLA%20-%20Update%20Month%20Two.htm

The whole point was to make free tools available, not to enable more buyware tools or mods, which goes against the intrinsic purpose of making the information free to begin with.

Such considerations ARE held in court, and ARE considered when disputes are made.

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Rolan7

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #712 on: April 29, 2015, 01:41:27 am »

If I understand you right, you're suggesting that a thief could steal someone's code and post it for sale on Steam, and if the creator didn't bring a suit within three years (longer than Steam has existed), they would be able to continue violating that copyright indefinitely. 

Steam has existed for over a decade. The steam workshop is a bit more recent, but AFAIK it's been 3 years by now.

Blugh, I meant Skyrim not Steam.  Anyway...

The latter can be defeated in court if there is evidence of such fraudulent appropriation, but then again, if the discovery of that appropriation is not dealt with within 3 years, no legal remedy is possible.
Cool, we're on the same page there.  Although this quote from the patentylo page you linked suggests to me that each sale would have its own timer.  So even if someone (somehow) managed to sell the creator's code for over three years without any legal action, the creator would only have lost their chance to sue for the oldest infringements:
Quote
Copyright infringement has a three-year statute of limitations indicating that “No civil action shall be maintained under the [Act] unless it is commenced within three years after the claim accrued.” 17 U.S.C. §507(b). However, as in patent law, copyright follows a “separate-accrual rule” that sees each successive violation of a copyright as a new infringing act with its own statute of limitations. Thus, under the statute of limitations, MGM could be liable for its post-2006 actions such as copying and distributing the work.

Though I think realistically, Steam would have removed the content long before that point once the theft was noticed, and wouldn't care about the three-year statute of limitations anyway.

So, the two work together like this:

I make a work, and have it up on the interwebs. Somebody steals it, starts selling it, and makes a business out of selling it. I do not know about it, and thus do not shut it down in a timely manner (within 3 years).  As a consequence, when I DO find out about it, I cannot seek legal remedy, due to Laches, and Estoppel. He has essentially stolen my right to control distribution and derivative works of my work, and due to my negligence, I am unable to fight it.
Even though this seems like an unlikely situation, I disagree with your conclusion because of the section I quoted above.  But even if you're right, that just means that the thief can continue attempting to sell the other person's work (as long as Steam decides to allow it).  You said the thief would be able to prevent the original content creator from distributing their own work, which is a different thing.

In regard to something patentable, it is first to file who gets the protection. So while I might be able to get his patent invalided by showing prior art, he is still the one who gets awarded the patent-- not me.
I admit I don't understand patent law, but...  Is it even possible to patent specific code?  Or art assets?  As I understand it, one patents a concept like putting three buttons on a mouse, or possibly an algorithm.  Not a texture or model, or a code patch.

Even if this is possible, I don't see any connection between this and the copyright issue.  Unless you're saying that, once someone has violated a copyright for three years, they can then proceed to patent the copyrighted material as their own?  That would surely be a "successive violation" under the section I quoted, and thus subject to its own three-year statute of limitations.  If it's even possible at all...

That there is a risk of losing this protection/control over intellectual property, companies with a vested interest in that IP actively and viciously enforce their rights. That is why a market that allows resale of mods directly without paying the Bethesda Tax (tm), would be immediately and aggressively torpedoed by Bethesda's attack lawyers, lest the site exist for more than 3 years time, and become immune, making Bethesda unable to stop appropriation.
A Skyrim mod doesn't threaten Bethesda's IP whatsoever...  If it did, it would do so regardless of whether it's paid or not.  But it doesn't, because it's only modifying Bethesda's assets, not copying and claiming them.

Though, I haven't seen the license under which Bethesda offers its assets.  If they have a clause which prohibits selling modifications to their assets, without their permission, then selling a mod might be copyright infringement (I don't know if a license agreement can legally demand that).  If so, then Bethesda would have three years to sue for each case of infringement.

For a specific use situation where it would come up in the TES mod community specifically-- Let's say I am the creator of SkyUI, or some similar highly utilized tech mod. Other people incorporate my work, and produce derivative works from my work, and I do NOT crack down on them for 3 years after they start using my work without seeking license from me. This removes my power to legally compel them to stop using my work should they decide to then use their protected user status to sublicense their immunity with their own licenses to my work. EG-- While I might switch to a paid model, they can fork my mod as it was when it was incorporated 3 years prior, and continue development of it outside of my control, and there is not a god damned thing I can do about it.
Again, I think each time they distribute their derivative work would be a new violation.  They *definitely* don't gain "protected user status to sublicense their immunity", that would clearly be a new violation with its own statute of limitations.
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She/they
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Leyic

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #713 on: April 29, 2015, 04:24:39 am »

For instance, NIFLA's primary PURPOSE for existing! It was LITERALLY the Net Immerse Format Liberation Association--- A group DEDICATED to creating non commercial availability of the most deepest inner workings of the netimmerse engine and file formats.
(Emphasis mine.) A single group is still not representative of the whole community. A program to convert to and from the .nif format represents a tangible, not knowledge. Knowledge would be represented by a tutorial on how to use the CS, or the information contained on the CS wiki, or help given on a forum regarding how to use particular software for asset creation, etc. If someone learns how to do something while within a community, they have acquired knowledge from that community. If that someone then goes on to profit from their ability to perform that something, the community has no expectation of compensation provided the student did not agree to any such obligation, either directly or through licenses attached to tools to perform that something which are controlled by the community. The notion that this learned knowledge, once taught, can be stolen when no such obligations were made is ludicrous.

Could it be that you're referring to "community knowledge" in a strict sense? That you're actually referring to knowledge and tangibles directly regarding the game files only? If the community were to have a tutorial on asset creation which is not specific to the game in question nor uses software controlled by the community, would that represent "stealable" knowledge in your opinion?

Trapezohedron

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #714 on: April 29, 2015, 05:01:24 am »

I swear the above is starting to sound like cherry picking.

I'm not good at debates like this, but remind me again what constitutes a community. A group of people?
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BoredVirulence

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #715 on: April 29, 2015, 09:06:43 am »

I would just like to point out that, as far as I can tell, this is free software vs open source software all over again.
User freedom vs developer freedom. They're even kind enough to use the same analogy.

For those of you less familiar with the cathedral and the bazaar, the cathedral is seen as a place of control by the oppressive developers who are strict and mean. The bazaar is the place of freedom for developers to do what they please, how they please. That's the superficial argument for why open source is better than free software. Spoiler, it's really about luring business investment and making open source software profitable. RMS may be crazy, and GNU projects do have a strict amount of control when it comes to unknown's trying to commit, but free software has your best interests at heart.

Its funny though, because here its the almost the opposite. The cathedral style here is much more loose and trusting, while cathedral style software projects tend to require a reputation and relationship with one of the lieutenants to help. The only thing "developer freedom" brings in this case is the ability to monetize work.

I see no reason why this is a good idea. If you are a good modder and want to make a living doing it, develop your own game, stop using a proprietary technology you have no association with and such a heavy license, or get hired by a developer. Trying to get paid for producing content under such a heavy license is just lazy, its lazy because you refuse to move somewhere better because its what you're used to.   
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nenjin

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #716 on: April 29, 2015, 10:10:48 am »

So Cathedrals are good, except when they're bad. And parlors are bad, but bazaar's are good.

Quick, let's throw a couple more kinds of structures in there, we need more diversity.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #717 on: April 29, 2015, 10:17:14 am »

.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 09:51:31 pm by penguinofhonor »
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Rolan7

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #718 on: April 29, 2015, 10:22:26 am »

Cathedrals are great, open-source is great.  It exists perfectly fine in the same market as closed-source, payed software.

In fact, people steal open-source software for their own projects all the time... Yet AFAIK never go back and claim sole rights to what they stole, even after three years.  Hm!
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She/they
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This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

Flying Dice

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Re: Steam Workshop - Axing support for paid mods
« Reply #719 on: April 29, 2015, 10:54:35 am »

By my recollection of how the legal stuff works, you're missing the point. If you don't enforce in every case, if a single person manages to use your intellectual property for longer than that, you lose the right to enforce your ownership in future cases. It doesn't matter if that person never tries to claim your material as their own, merely distributing it without proper licensing or approval for that period of time can invalidate your rights, allowing other people to steal or claim it as their own without consequence.
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