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[Leyic]

No, because a large part of the community's success comes from its open nature that having paid mods actively destroys, as can be seen with the oft-mentioned Sims 2 community.

That's why the Paradox modding community is now a wasteland of despair?

[Flying Dice]

As I recall, paid mods were also responsible for wrecking the Spore modding community. It's not like there aren't good examples of how this plays out.

[Leyic]

What? Paradox outright forbids paid mods as of now.

"For The Glory", "Darkest Hour", and "Arsenal of Democracy" were all made by groups from the modding community, having been commissioned by Paradox themselves. (There's also "Magna Mundi" and "East vs. West", but those both failed.)

[Levi]

They're going to wait for people to forget and then try again with a new game that doesn't have a large, established community.

Exactly.  I'm going to be slowly transitioning to Gog I think. 

[GrizzlyAdamz]

Hey guys, don't forget to undo your negative Skyrim reviews, if you made one.

I wish we didn't have to come to this.

[MrRoboto75]

It is over, for now:
http://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWorkshop/announcements/detail/208632365253244218

[Putnam]

What? Paradox outright forbids paid mods as of now.

"For The Glory", "Darkest Hour", and "Arsenal of Democracy" were all made by groups from the modding community, having been commissioned by Paradox themselves. (There's also "Magna Mundi" and "East vs. West", but those both failed.)

That's completely apples to oranges for reasons you gave.

[Flying Dice]

Hey guys, don't forget to undo your negative Skyrim reviews, if you made one.

I wish we didn't have to come to this.

I left a note on mine. Not doing it until a couple years have passed without this rising to the surface again.

What? Paradox outright forbids paid mods as of now.

"For The Glory", "Darkest Hour", and "Arsenal of Democracy" were all made by groups from the modding community, having been commissioned by Paradox themselves. (There's also "Magna Mundi" and "East vs. West", but those both failed.)

That's a distinctly different animal from the paid mods on the Workshop. You saw the same thing with Mount & Musket for M&B Warband, and with things like DotA, CounterStrike, and Team Fortress, where a specific mod was successful enough that the developer of the original game brought the modders on board specifically to let them make something which is markedly different (I'll refrain from saying "improved" for fear of starting a 1.6 vs. Source shitstorm) from their original work, with access to more resources and support.

For example, if Bethesda brought the people behind (say) Moonpath to Elsweyr onboard to create an official Skyrim DLC for Elsweyr with access to Bethesda's resources and personnel, then released that? I'd be completely cool with that, as long as it wasn't reliant on mods to run. I.E., like Dragonborn and Dawnguard, you could buy it and play it with vanilla Skyrim.

That's not the same thing as letting people sell (ferex) weapon reskins and skim a big chunk of the profits for yourself, without caring that the (in this case) weapon reskins rely on content from a mod somebody else released for free.

--

e: Gods above and below, I just realized. We made it through an internet shitstorm without anyone getting their ickle feelings hurt and bothering Tarn to delete posts, despite a lot of us (myself included) getting fairly heated. Good show, everyone!

[Leyic]

For example, if Bethesda brought the people behind (say) Moonpath to Elsweyr onboard to create an official Skyrim DLC for Elsweyr with access to Bethesda's resources and personnel, then released that? I'd be completely cool with that, as long as it wasn't reliant on mods to run. I.E., like Dragonborn and Dawnguard, you could buy it and play it with vanilla Skyrim.

Oh good freakin' grief. I've been saying this whole time that the anarchic ValveThesda model is a disaster while giving examples of how TR, Nehirim, Falskaar, etc. could be a transition to rational paid modding. The response I kept getting was that paid modding was bad *without exception*, complete with various stilted examples (not by you) of how hobbyists are *always* superior to professionals. Now you clarify? You would've saved both of us some trouble if you clarified in the first place.

[GrizzlyAdamz]

e: Gods above and below, I just realized. We made it through an internet shitstorm without anyone getting their ickle feelings hurt and bothering Tarn to delete posts, despite a lot of us (myself included) getting fairly heated. Good show, everyone!

I have some bad news for ya.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I removed some comparisons and so on that were causing issues.  Please try to keep things in perspective.

They're going to wait for people to forget and then try again with a new game that doesn't have a large, established community. I doubt it'll be Fallout 4 -- Bethesda's press release a little while ago threw Valve under the bus on this, and I doubt that they're going to want to touch the idea with an 11' pole now.

How so?

[NullForceOmega]

We *almost* made it through without invoking the Toad, but we *did* manage to avoid any locks or bans, so all in all I'd say successful war.

[Putnam]

For example, if Bethesda brought the people behind (say) Moonpath to Elsweyr onboard to create an official Skyrim DLC for Elsweyr with access to Bethesda's resources and personnel, then released that? I'd be completely cool with that, as long as it wasn't reliant on mods to run. I.E., like Dragonborn and Dawnguard, you could buy it and play it with vanilla Skyrim.

Oh good freakin' grief. I've been saying this whole time that the anarchic ValveThesda model is a disaster while giving examples of how TR, Nehirim, Falskaar, etc. could be a transition to rational paid modding. The response I kept getting was that paid modding was bad *without exception*, complete with various stilted examples (not by you) of how hobbyists are *always* superior to professionals. Now you clarify? You would've saved both of us some trouble if you clarified in the first place.

It's a good thing that literally nobody ever said that hobbyists are always superior to professionals except you.

[Flying Dice]

I would have thought that that was obvious. Take, for example, the distinction: Mount & Musket = Mods, Napoleonic Wars = DLC.

Meanwhile, the version of (for example) Wet and Cold on the Workshop for money was functionally identical to the free version on the Nexus. And the author didn't get hired on by Valve to make an official expansion of the game along the same lines sans the elements which require SKSE to work.

It's not difficult to understand. One's officially a part of the vanilla game and (effectively) produced by the developer working alongside the person or team that made the original mod, adapting it so that it stands alone with the vanilla game. The other does not directly involve the developer in anything except lining their pockets and does not remove dependencies on other mods. It's not paid modding, it's a company recognizing talent with good ideas and hiring them to officially integrate their ideas into the base game.

e: Gods above and below, I just realized. We made it through an internet shitstorm without anyone getting their ickle feelings hurt and bothering Tarn to delete posts, despite a lot of us (myself included) getting fairly heated. Good show, everyone!

I have some bad news for ya.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I removed some comparisons and so on that were causing issues.  Please try to keep things in perspective.

Shh, I was trying to ignore that. 

They're going to wait for people to forget and then try again with a new game that doesn't have a large, established community. I doubt it'll be Fallout 4 -- Bethesda's press release a little while ago threw Valve under the bus on this, and I doubt that they're going to want to touch the idea with an 11' pole now.

How so?

In our early discussions regarding Workshop with Valve, they presented data showing the effect paid user content has had on their games, their players, and their modders. All of it hugely positive. They showed, quite clearly, that allowing content creators to make money increased the quality and choice that players had. They asked if we would consider doing the same.

"It was all Valve's idea, they came to us and told us it was a good idea that would make things better for you!"

Three years later and Valve has finally solved the technical and legal hurdles to make such a thing possible, and they should be celebrated for it. It wasn’t easy. They are not forcing us, or any other game, to do it. They are opening a powerful new choice for everyone.

"Valve were the ones pushing to get it working!"

Opening up a market like this is full of problems. They are all the same problems every software developer faces (support, theft, etc.), and the solutions are the same. Valve has done a great job addressing those, but there will be new ones, and we’re confident those will get solved over time also. If the system shows that it needs curation, we’ll consider it, but we believe that should be a last resort.

"...because they were their problems to solve, after all."

The remaining is split 25% to the modder and 45% to us. We ultimately decide this percentage, not Valve.

This was the only point where they admitted fault at all, and then they proceeded directly into further damage control a la:

This is not some money grabbing scheme by us. Even this weekend, when Skyrim was free for all, mod sales represented less than 1% of our Steam revenue.

[SealyStar]

So it's not a joke? Paid mods are actually kill?

[Leyic]

It's a good thing that literally nobody ever said that hobbyists are always superior to professionals except you.

So the order goes like that: Indie game developers < Professional game developers < Properly motivated hobbyists.

Granted, he says "Properly motivated", but then never defines what that is. Supposedly it doesn't involve anything financial.

I would have thought that that was obvious. Take, for example, the distinction: Mount & Musket = Mods, Napoleonic Wars = DLC.

Meanwhile, the version of (for example) Wet and Cold on the Workshop for money was functionally identical to the free version on the Nexus. And the author didn't get hired on by Valve to make an official expansion of the game along the same lines sans the elements which require SKSE to work.

It's not difficult to understand. One's officially a part of the vanilla game and (effectively) produced by the developer working alongside the person or team that made the original mod, adapting it so that it stands alone with the vanilla game. The other does not directly involve the developer in anything except lining their pockets and does not remove dependencies on other mods. It's not paid modding, it's a company recognizing talent with good ideas and hiring them to officially integrate their ideas into the base game.

Except when modders are officially hired and brought into the developer, they do lose creative control over their content. Anything the "Wet and Cold" dev makes for Bethesda while working for Beth would belong to Beth. They could fire him a year later and continue using and selling his work, and there wouldn't be a thing anyone could do about it. Commissioning works better as you continue to be your own business with your own IP, as long as you don't sign it away.

So it's not a joke? Paid mods are actually kill?

For now.