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[Arbinire]

That's edging dangerously close to monopoly then.  While yes, there are free versions of mods elsewhere, there's already a distinction being made between the free and paid versions of mods posted to the market.

[Sergarr]

The most likely answer, is that Bethesda will send the attack trained lawyers on them.

They sent the lawyers after the creator of minecraft for DARING to call a new game project he was working on "Scrolls" not that long ago, claiming the name was a trademark violation against the Elder Scrolls franchise, even though the games had NOTHING in common.

If Bethesda/Zenimax THINKS they could maybe, possibly, be losing money because of lack of enforcement of their IP rights, they *WILL* send the lawyers.

So what I get from this is that if I want to make a game I need to pick a long numerical name with random characters sprinkled at the end, if I don't want the lawyers on my hind?

[scriver]

Well, it never went to court, but yes, basically.

According to Bethesda/Zenimax, at least.

[Flying Dice]

Funny thing is, I've yet to see a single modder speaking out in favor of this except as a way to stop their work being stolen or because they didn't know what it would entail.

Putnam, this is what I've been responding to the entire time. People are moving their work to Workshop for the purpose of monetizing it. If that's not being in favor of the idea, then what is it?

And this is the point you've been ignoring. There is a grand total of one mod in the paid workshop that is 1) quality, 2) not stolen, 3) not a joke. Everything else is rubbish that was clearly made in an afternoon to try to cash in.

Nope.

Dat lighting.

Color me thoroughly unsurprised. If this is your idea of a quality mod, you have objectively bad taste. It's not just the lighting, either; that first one does a good runthrough of the issues. I've seen fucking CounterStrike: Source custom maps that look better than that. It's not like it's an impossible feat to craft a new location including new interiors that looks as good or better than vanilla. See: Riverside Lodge, Rayek's End, Sjet Blad Castle, Dragon Falls Manor, Bluecreek Estate, Immersive Settlements, and The Asteria to name a few, not to mention all of the vanilla city graphical and detail upgrades.

[10ebbor10]

And this is the point you've been ignoring. There is a grand total of one mod in the paid workshop that is 1) quality, 2) not stolen, 3) not a joke. Everything else is rubbish that was clearly made in an afternoon to try to cash in.

Is this not a pro-paid modding point?

Obviously, not enough time has passed to create a quality mod specifically for the paid workshop. So, the fact that there's only 1 quality mod there now kind-off prooves that the workshop doesn't push previously free mods into the paid sphere. Wherether Quality mods, created by people attracted to the capability of gathering some money, appear over time is currently unknown.

[Leyic]

Nehrim, Wyrmstooth, Falskaar, Tamriel Rebuilt, etc. will never not be The Elder Scrolls. It can't not be those. This is where mods might lack the depth and freedom of new IPs, programs, or projects. This is how it is different from Cave Story. The creators of these mods are not Bethesda and so don't have the same liberty for creating content that Bethesda does, which is also where it would differ from Cave Story.

Why am I assuming all modders want to monetize? Please point out where I'm assuming this and I can explain why, because I'm not sure where or how I'm doing that.

I'd like to have a full conversation and clear up miscommunication, but I can't do that if I'm made to argue with a twisted phantasm of my own opinion.

So the basis for whether something has depth is whether or not they have their own IP and game engine? So Star Wars games don't have depth because they don't have an original IP? Games based on the Unreal or Unity or RPGMaker engines don't have depth because they're based on prior programming? What about regular DLC like Dragonborn, does that have any depth? Nehirim wasn't even based on Elder Scrolls IP and had new mechanics like a crafting system. Bethesda has nothing to do with anyone's ability to create content (someone was working on a Fallout TC for Morrowind well before Beth bought that IP, creating their own assets the whole way through).

You said "You're gonna buy the game and then see every modder-turned-street peddler ply and plead for your attention and coin." So you didn't say every modder would monetize, but you certainly make it sound like the ones that do will be unavoidable. For that matter, there are a ton of indie game devs on Steam looking for attention and cash, and they haven't ruined indie gaming so I'm not even sure what you're concerned about. If you're not interested in paid mods, just avoid Workshop and stay on places that only allow free mods without advertising.

The most likely answer, is that Bethesda will send the attack trained lawyers on them.

They sent the lawyers after the creator of minecraft for DARING to call a new game project he was working on "Scrolls" not that long ago, claiming the name was a trademark violation against the Elder Scrolls franchise, even though the games had NOTHING in common.

If Bethesda/Zenimax THINKS they could maybe, possibly, be losing money because of lack of enforcement of their IP rights, they *WILL* send the lawyers.

Standard lawyer practice. Not just Bethesda does it. The way the law works, if you don't set precedent for defending your IP, then you're unlikely to win any case where someone clearly steals your IP. They could've allowed Scrolls to continue existing as Scrolls, but then someone else could make another game also called Scrolls that clearly intrudes upon Beth's IP and get away with it on the argument that Beth is no longer defending their IP. It's why you rarely see games with simple names and no subtitles any more. Try making a for-profit game called "Effect" or "Theft" and it won't be long before EA's or Rockstar's lawyers are on your case. You don't have to like it, but IP law is complicated and screwy, so hypervigilance is the norm.

Funny thing is, I've yet to see a single modder speaking out in favor of this except as a way to stop their work being stolen or because they didn't know what it would entail.

Putnam, this is what I've been responding to the entire time. People are moving their work to Workshop for the purpose of monetizing it. If that's not being in favor of the idea, then what is it?

And this is the point you've been ignoring. There is a grand total of one mod in the paid workshop that is 1) quality, 2) not stolen, 3) not a joke. Everything else is rubbish that was clearly made in an afternoon to try to cash in.

I'm not ignoring that the paid mods are by-and-large crap, that's not the point. Each and everyone of those modders put their work on Workshop either thinking that paid modding is a good idea, or that paid modding is a bad idea. I find it extremely unlikely that people would put up non-stolen, non-joke paid mods, regardless of quality, while simultaneously thinking it's a bad idea.

Edit: Something that needs to be clarified: Most of the initial paid mods were made very quickly because the modders involved were given short notice and were asked to make new material. isoku, xilverbulet, and Chesko were the only ones who elected to put up upgraded versions of preexisting material (and Chesko has since pulled out, while isoku has a DMCA take down to contend with). That doesn't make any of it quality work, but please understand that they were working under ValveThesda's wishes and deadlines.

[da_nang]

Internet rages on.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Sergarr]

Attack on fax? That's genius!

[Leyic]

If we have to buy mods <snip>

Address my fears. Show me the light through these clouds instead of banishing them to the same darkness. Tell me why this is a good thing instead of telling me why it isn't a bad thing.

That first line I quote is why I think you think all modders are going the paid route. You make it sound like free mods will cease to exist, hence why we must buy mods or not mod at all. Free mods will continue to exist. You will not be forced to buy mods and will still be able to mod your game. Several modders have already said as much.

Trying to address your fears: Consider Tamriel Rebuilt, which has been in progress for ~12 years now, slowly but surely putting out new content, some of which actually plays like a game. They have a core team that keeps the whole mess organized, and several content creators that come and go as per their individual interest and availability. Overall progress is slow as they have a linear process to follow: quests can't be programmed without storyboarding, towns and dungeons can't be created without assets, etc. They apparently have around ~42,500 unique downloads (making some estimates as Nexus and GHF report their numbers differently). If each of those downloaders had donated one dollar, they could've afforded to commission an artist or writer to make some quality content for them on a reasonable schedule, and everyone all the way down to the players would benefit. But we can't have nice things like that because everyone expects everyone else to donate without ever opening their own wallets. What if Bethesda had allowed them to monetize on the condition that Telvannis be released as DLC? Somewhat similar to "Arsenal of Democracy" or "Mount & Blade: Fire & Sword" or "Neverwinter Nights: Kingmaker".

There's room to monetize the big DLC quality mods that I keep referring to because, once professional resources are put into them, they can be brought up to the level of official DLC. But without money, they'll have no pro resources and assets. We'd get more, higher quality large mods, while small mods remain the domain of hobbyists. Plus, the game as a whole would stay more alive, so we'd lose less modders to boredom and apathy. That's how things could've been if ValveThesda didn't take the quick-and-easy greedy path.

[Graknorke]

(Hey guys I think leyic might be a laissez-faire capitalist.)

[Zangi]

I'm fairly laissez-faire, till I consider the fact that non-regulated stuff can and will screw me somewhere down the line. 

[Sergarr]

Leyic, you seem to assume that "professional resources" are somehow better than what properly motivated hobbyists can already do.

Hint: they're not.

[Leyic]

(Hey guys I think leyic might be a laissez-faire capitalist.)

Ad hominem attack. Classy. As if games and art are better off fully socialized (i.e. CBBE is banned because the People's Committee for Wholesomeness in Modding has determined that its content is unwholesome; Caliente is sent to a Learning to Live facility for rehabilitation).

Leyic, you seem to assume that "professional resources" are somehow better than what properly motivated hobbyists can already do.

Hint: they're not.

So why do indie game devs keep commissioning pros for art, sound, music, and voice?

[Retropunch]

That first line I quote is why I think you think all modders are going the paid route. You make it sound like free mods will cease to exist, hence why we must buy mods or not mod at all. Free mods will continue to exist. You will not be forced to buy mods and will still be able to mod your game. Several modders have already said as much.

We'd get more, higher quality large mods, while small mods remain the domain of hobbyists. Plus, the game as a whole would stay more alive, so we'd lose less modders to boredom and apathy. That's how things could've been if ValveThesda didn't take the quick-and-easy greedy path.

As I said before (the previous page), this only works if there are proper controls in place. What is 100% guaranteed to happen (AS IT ALREADY HAS!!!) is that any good mods that are free will get ripped off and put out as paid mods by unscrupulous bastards - which makes it pretty much pointless for someone to invest their time into it, if it's just going to be ripped off by a hundred people trying to make some fast cash.

This is a bigger problem than other markets as mods are, by their very nature, derivative. How can you say that someone ripped off your work, if you yourself are (in very simplified terms) ripping off the work of someone else.

It's a literal disaster. I hope 4chan floods their offices with black ink.