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Imperium

24 (77.4%)

Chaos

7 (22.6%)

Total Members Voted: 30

[MetalSlimeHunt]

This thread is an experiment in the line of a previous choice thread I had, but this one differs in that it is focused on some of the philosophical questions raised within fictional universes. And here is the first.
It is the 41st millennium. In the grim darkness of the far future blah blah blah only war, you know the story. Humanity is divided between the servants of an oppressive Imperium and the worshipers of Chaos, as innumerable threats bear down on them. The Necrons are awakening. The Tyranids are coming. The Golden Throne is irreparably damaged and the Astronomicon grows dim. And I think we can agree that this is all Lorgar's fault for being a whiny bastard who would worship anything mysterious that came into his field of view despite being a godlike being himself.

Here is the scenario: We know, indisputably, that humans can survive as part of Chaos. There are breeding populations of humans in the Eye of Terror (and on Slaneeshi worlds, lots of emphasis on that breeding part). Outside threats may still be able to destroy humanity, but Chaos won't destroy humanity. Hell, Chaos is a primarily human faction, all things considered. We also know that the Imperium doesn't have much fight left in it as of M41. It is the strongest operating faction on its own, but everybody else is attempting to destroy the Imperium. Its massive existence means conflicts with the Eldar future-sight are common, the Dark Eldar make a killing (ha, ha so witty) off human pain slaves, the Astronomicon is drawing the Tyranids directly into the Imperium, the Orks consider the humans their best friends, the Tau are mostly irrelevant, and the Mechanicus won't keep their filthy tentacles off Necron Tombs. Shit is bad and the Golden Throne is scheduled to fail, there's no telling what happens then. At the same time, the Imperium is the only thing keeping the defined group of Order factions from all being destroyed, and humanity as we know it can only exist if the Imperium is allowed to continue. The Imperium is also among the only groups to have cultivated a strong anti-Chaos effect, that being the Armour of Contempt that protects against Chaos corruption if their faith in the Emperor gives them enough hate to resist.

Here is the question: Based upon your own ethical reasoning, is it better for humanity to stand firm under the Imperium and continue trying to resist in that way despite the low odds of survival, or is it better for humanity to become one with Chaos and use its power despite the radical alteration that represents?

Points to consider:
-The Imperium is a fascist, theocratic, genocidal hellhole that spurns all progress and rules over trillions if not quadrillions of humans across the Milky Way.
-Chaos changes its adherents via the gifts of the Chaos Gods, and remaining human as we would understand it is no guarantee.
-Most people suffer under the Imperium, but not all, and even so it is able to rule over more people than any other faction.
-Chaos represents both positive and negative emotions, but the grimdarkness of 40K is ensuring it remains firmly in the latter category.
-The Imperium is primarily active, while Chaos is primarily reactive. Chaos as it has been shown does not conceive of future scenarios and plan for them like humans normally do. Even Tzneetch plans only for the sake of planning, and might die if he ever planned for the sake of a true goal.
-Benevolent warpspace entities can exist, as shown by the Eldar Gods, whom were actually worshipped by a great many species. Then Slaneesh ate them because the Eldar decided they wanted to have psychic pleasure olympics instead of a civilization. Note that Isha is still alive as Nurgle's prisoner, Khaine is still alive as a million tiny pieces, Cegorach is still alive in the Webway and Black Library, and that the Craftworld Eldar are planning mass suicide to create Ynnead, a death god they believe will kill Slaneesh and rebirth the Eldar race.
-The warp, and thus Chaos, is formed by the thoughts and souls of mortal beings, most notably humans. As long as there are living beings Chaos will never die.
-The Emperor's true state is unknown. He stopped speaking directly to people not long after ascending the Golden Throne. However, he has also been known to stop time and focus psychic contact upon people even millennia after this. It is possible that the Emperor is dead and the Golden Throne is doing the real work of the Astronomicon.
-The Emperor is thought to be a Perpetual, as Vulkan was. If this applies even to the wounds inflicted upon him by Horus, whom at that point was the living avatar of Chaos Undivided, then logically he will return to health after dying from the Golden Throne failing, though this does not explain why he did not choose to simply die and revive back then.
-Others believe that the Emperor's intense warp presence will lead him to becoming a warpspace entity like the Chaos gods should he die.
-For whatever time period the Emperor is dead or not in control, the Astronomicon will fail and FTL travel will become impossible for the Imperium.
-There is a daemon-infested Webway gate under the Imperial Palace being held mostly shut by the Emperor. Even so, people have reported hearing the Custodes fighting a constant and epic battle behind the doors leading to this chamber.
-There is evidence to suggest that warpstorm incursions such as the Eye of Terror will spill out into the materium unhindered if the Emperor dies.
-Humanity is evolving into a wholly psychic species, exempting untouchables and pariahs. It is not clear if humanity is also developing the secondary powers needed for this process to be viable. Beta, Alpha, and Alpha+ psykers are almost without exception totally insane.
-Papa Nurgle loves you.
-If you're one of those weirdos who considers aliens to be people you can factor them into your answer, as humanity committing to either side will have massive effects on the fate of the galaxy.
-A group of alien seers called the Cabal told Alpharius/Omegon that there were two paths for humanity's future. If the Emperor killed Horus then humanity would persist for another 10,000 years and be destroyed. If Horus killed the Emperor then Chaos would overwhelm the galaxy, but Horus would grow to regret his betrayal of the Emperor and would wipe out humanity in a self-destructive crusade. Chaos would be destroyed by this as it had sunk its teeth too far into humanity and could not survive that loss. Horus is now deader than anybody has ever been dead. It is not 100% certain that the Cabal could be trusted or that Alpharius/Omegon believed them.
-The Immaterium does not obey any laws. Period. And the laws I mean are less those of the Imperium and more those of physics and reality. Anything can happen. After Slaneesh was born in M30 hir existence was established both into the past and into the future, and at the same time one can say zie was never born at all. The Chaos God are simultaneously a memetic psychic pathogen that lives within us all, actual 'physical' entities living in the warp, and mythical beings attributed the actions of natural patterns in the warp, as well as many other things.

I will admit that I have an interest in hearing pro-Chaos arguments since most of canon is strongly pro-Imperium, but I think I've brought up a fair number of points.

[Sergarr]

I'd say the best combination would be a way to do something to either heal or reincarnate (he's supposed to be a reincarnator guy (perpetuum or something)) Emperor and then go and conquer the fuck out of Chaos. I'm pretty sure that Emperor w/ support from the rest of Imperium can kick the Chaos Gods out of Immaterium and then bend it to Humanity's Will. There's a reason why they were hiding their presence until Emperor got fucked up good.

[Frumple]

Chaos really seems to have a better chance of keeping things together, in the long run. They're not lynchpinned on the emperor, nor technically the chaos gods themselves. More of a generalized warp thing. They've also got something more of a reason for their particular excesses, which is faintly something. Win on the progress points -- they actually research and whatnot. Arguably better medical care and living conditions, on average (which is really freaking saying something). Sure, there's the horrific warp abomination and people occasionally being used as food/architecture/weaponry/etc. downside, but the Imperium kinda' has that, too. E: Basically, if I were going to line things up and see which side would end up being on the net better for humanity... I'd definitely say Chaos is going to win out. Probably fairly substantially. So they'd end up with my metaphorical vote, as things go. [/E]

The actual answer is that everyone should immediately jump ship over to the Tau, though. They're no more culturally/morally offensive than anyone involved, and tend to both treat folks they get their hands on much better and are actually doing that whole progress and more-or-less sanity thing.

Though the reality of it is that neither side is going to collapse or anything. The Orkz think there is nothing but war, and so there is. Galactic meta-stasis will remain until the greenies get bored with it, which will be never.

Da' humies iz in Gork and Mork's 'eaven, now.

[Criptfeind]

Arguably better medical care and living conditions, on average

Is this actually the case? If so, it seems like a no brainer between the two.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Arguably better medical care and living conditions, on average

Is this actually the case? If so, it seems like a no brainer between the two.

You wouldn't believe what distilled souls can do for acne, cancer, and death.

[i2amroy]

Personally I think that the Imperium wouldn't be having near the trouble it does if it actually embraced and tried to improve the technology that was available, rather blocking out pretty much all forms of new or alien technology.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The Mechanicus does have a point, sometimes. There's always the archetypal example of accidentally drawing the Symbol of Khorne a hundred million times on your new microchip pattern, and now all the computers want to bathe in our blood and summon Bloodthirster packs whenever you run an executable (a word which the computers interpret very liberally).

But there are other problems still...

[Antioch]

Well the Imperium may all be assholes but their goal is SURVIVAL. The 40k universe IS actively trying to kill the human race. Survival is something that is able to override virtually all ethical reasoning. Now however the Imperium probably would be a lot more successful if they weren't xenophobic technophobic fascist assholes. But I wouldn't consider the struggle for survival of the Imperium as an entity as something unethical.

From a lore perspective can chaos in it's current form even exist without humanity?

[Remuthra]

Look at where Chaos got the Eldar. Humanity is also psychically potent and has far more power than they ever did.

[Frumple]

... don't you mean look at where the eldar got chaos?

And yeah, corpseboy's the next warp god, and is doing pretty good compared to ol' slanno. Not sure what y'point is.

Though nah, Anti. Only some of the 40k universe is trying to kill humanity. Mostly just the necrons and 'nids, really, and they want to kill everything not them, not just humanity. Tau want them around, both Chaos and the impies is mostly made of them, Orkz want to kill lots of them but dere's gotta' be humies t'crump for a propa' brawl so they want 'em around, too (which is probably the only reason there's any humies left, honestly -- orkz is the biggest, and the best, and that's not hyperbole or exaggeration). Not sure about the eldar, but the dark ones want a nice slave population, too.

Honestly, most of the factions in 40k actually want humans alive, for one reason or another, and lots of 'em at that. Just not necessarily in the best of conditions.

[wierd]

Given how terrible all these groups sound upon reading the first post of this thread, I suggest the creation of a "Terrorist" group, that holds the galaxy by the balls with a false vacuum collapse weapon.

In case you dont speak physicist, there is quite a bit of cursory evidence to suggest that "Normal" spacetime as we consider it is actually a false vacuum--- A low energy state that is NOT the LOWEST state possible, and thus subject to radical changes when poked just the right ways.

Initiating false vacuum collapse would destroy EVERYTHING in the galaxy at the speed of light, and continue to spread outside the galaxy eternally after that.

Hubble expansion would continue to inject new meta-stable space between neighboring galaxies at a rate that would exceed the collapse front's rate of encroachment, at least for some neighboring galaxies.  Because of this, the device will NOT destroy the whole of the universe, just a rather large part of it.

Since this is in a "Space Opera Future" setting, such a device may well be possible to be constructed, and from the sounds of it, there is PLENTY of incentive to create such a thing.

Enjoy.

[Bohandas]

Chaos, definitely. The Imperium does all the same awful things as Chaos (mass murder, torture, genocide, sucking out people's souls), but unlike the Imperium the way Chaos does them is fun.

[wierd]

Clearly, whoever wrote about the Adeptus mechanicus does not comprehend how computers PHYSICALLY OPERATE.  Just saying.  The logic used by that linked talk page would mean that human brains themselves contain parts of the corrupted, demonic code. (Because human brains are able to parse, and process code fragments, just nowhere near as quickly as a computer. If this were not so, humans could not develop computer code!)

The premise is not rational.  Just saying.

From the second part of the linked talk page, it sounds 'almost' like my own personal philosophy, but makes a leap into pure derp, with the "accepting that life has no meaning == Creating technological terrors + Lack of civil ethics"  Rather, the rational mindset results in accepting that life indeed does not have an explicitly stated goal or ideal, but instead simply is.  This leads to the conclusion that the purpose of life, is to live.  Not that life has no purpose, and thus has no value or meaning.  The difference is quite large, as the former results in an anti-religious society that appreciates life for simply being-- and has no intrinsic interest in ending life needlessly-- while the latter considers the destruction of life for some stated purpose to be superior to the maintenance of life that serves no purpose. (Or the subversion of life TO suit a purpose.) However, the creator of this idea-trope wished to create a villainous aspect and pin a bunch of shit on it-- so naturally chose the latter type of interpretation, even though this is the least rational of the two. (A thing can exist with no purpose, but still have significant value. Ask the diamond sitting in the kimberlite formation if it has some cosmic purpose for existing. It doesn't. It is still valuable.)

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Clearly, whoever wrote about the Adeptus mechanicus does not comprehend how computers PHYSICALLY OPERATE.  Just saying.  The logic used by that linked talk page would mean that human brains themselves contain parts of the corrupted, demonic code.

Err...with 40K demons, that can be a true statement.

(Because human brains are able to parse, and process code fragments, just nowhere near as quickly as a computer. If this were not so, humans could not develop computer code!)

But also, the Adaptus Mechanicus turn themselves into machine hybrids, including their brains. The risk is very real.

[Loud Whispers]

Chaos really seems to have a better chance of keeping things together, in the long run. They're not lynchpinned on the emperor, nor technically the chaos gods themselves. More of a generalized warp thing.

I don't know mang, when the 3rdcrons were nomming the primordial races and the Old Ones the demons showed up and pretty much nearly fucked the whole universe over - themselves included. Chaos can't sustain itself without material outsiders. At any rate, Chaos gets rekt by Crons too hard - they're far too divided between the four Gods and Chaos undivided, and failbaddon the Armless wouldn't be able to do shit while the Crons constructed additional pylons^tm and reset the world.

They've also got something more of a reason for their particular excesses, which is faintly something. Win on the progress points -- they actually research and whatnot.

The Imperium's still researching and developing shit, and worlds close to Mechanicus worlds will be beefier than Bill Gates' Bumhole. They're just more careful you know, what with the risk of technoheresy or chaos resulting in sapient AI uprisings or chaos algorithms. That's why they use a shit version of the technological singularity, Bob the floating roboskull will not rebel because he's human in some way.

Arguably better medical care and living conditions, on average (which is really freaking saying something).

Give Papa Nurgle a hug for massive aids?

Sure, there's the horrific warp abomination and people occasionally being used as food/architecture/weaponry/etc. downside, but the Imperium kinda' has that, too.

Yeah, but would you rather be a lobotomized servitor or be a fully conscious brick for all eternity that has no mouth but must scream?

The actual answer is that everyone should immediately jump ship over to the Tau, though. They're no more culturally/morally offensive than anyone involved, and tend to both treat folks they get their hands on much better and are actually doing that whole progress and more-or-less sanity thing.

Bluborry no, they are far too weak. Their Empire is quite frankly an insignificant pixel on the face that is GW's stagnating plot and they still manage to fuck it up somehow. They haven't had to deal with mutants, cultists or rebels yet (with exception to the Tau who split off without a struggle), do not possess the tremendous, mighty and oppressive military bureaucracy that wipes out species that is the Administratum and they commit the worst sin known to 40k lore.
Being unable to fight in melee.

Though the reality of it is that neither side is going to collapse or anything.
Galactic meta-stasis will remain until the greenies GW gets bored with it, which will be never.

ftfy