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Author Topic: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.  (Read 7325 times)

Leafsnail

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2015, 12:47:20 am »

I've done more reading and I think you have just misunderstood the nature of S5, or possibly muddled two parts of it together.  What it actually says is
"If A is possible, then A is necessarily possible"
"Necessarily possible" is not equivalent to "true".  It just means that A being true in one world implies it must also be possible in all other worlds.  So yes, if we accept there could be a world with an immovable object and a different world with an unstoppable force, and that doing so implies that both are possible in this world.  It does not, however, imply that both (or indeed either) of them exist in reality.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 01:09:08 am by Leafsnail »
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Neonivek

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2015, 01:05:51 am »

Really? I thought rule 1 is that basic identity of something must exist in all worlds.

So X doesn't become a B in a different world. What is X in one world is X in all worlds.

But your logic fails for one reason... Zebras

Zebras exist on earth. How many Zebras live on mars?

But Axiom S5 isn't that...

It states that a Zebra on earth is the same as a Zebra on mars.
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wierd

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2015, 01:22:14 am »

Under that interpretation, the logic breaks with black holes, and with general relativity in general.

A second in one part of the universe, is not the same as a second in another part of the universe, as measured from a 3rd reference frame. 

Let's say we are observing the difference between "one second" between extra-galactic space (where there is little matter, and thus very little acceleration fields in effect) and behind the event horizon of a black hole, as measured from the reference frame of the Earth.

In the first, the second happens very quickly, as time in our reference suffers from local acceleration fields from the sun, the galaxy as a whole around us, and even our planet, which causes dilation.

In the second instance, the second seems to take an infinite amount of time to pass, due to the infinite acceleration field found behind the black hole's horizon.

Since the flow of time is not constant between observational frames, the axiom is false.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2015, 01:28:38 am »

The somewhat strange conclusion that arises from S5 is
"If A is possibly necessary, A is necessary" (=> A is true in reality)
If you try to parse this in day-to-day language it sounds pretty strange, but it's basically saying "If there's a world where A is necessarily true, then A is necessarily true in all worlds".  Note that you can simply reject the notion that it's possible for there to be a world where, say, God necessarily exists, so this isn't simply saying "everything you can imagine is true".
Under that interpretation, the logic breaks with black holes, and with general relativity in general.

A second in one part of the universe, is not the same as a second in another part of the universe, as measured from a 3rd reference frame.
These extra worlds do not have to actually exist, they can just be metaphorical devices to represent a phase space of different possible universes.
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wierd

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2015, 01:34:26 am »

The somewhat strange conclusion that arises from S5 is
"If A is possibly necessary, A is necessary" (=> A is true in reality)
If you try to parse this in day-to-day language it sounds pretty strange, but it's basically saying "If there's a world where A is necessarily true, then A is necessarily true in all worlds".  Note that you can simply reject the notion that it's possible for there to be a world where, say, God necessarily exists, so this isn't simply saying "everything you can imagine is true".
Under that interpretation, the logic breaks with black holes, and with general relativity in general.

A second in one part of the universe, is not the same as a second in another part of the universe, as measured from a 3rd reference frame.
These extra worlds do not have to actually exist, they can just be metaphorical devices to represent a phase space of different possible universes.

What is the observational difference between a locality where time is unmeasurable (because it is a coordinate singularity), and one where time does not exist? How can one tell the difference?

This is an important question, because a place in the universe where time ceases to exist would break the axiom-- while one with time as a coordinate singularity narrowly escapes.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2015, 01:36:22 am »

That's a very interesting physics question but I don't see what it has to do with logical frameworks?
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wierd

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2015, 01:40:05 am »

The axiom, roughly translated, says "If A is possible, then A is necessarily possible", per your own interpretation.

So, we have regions of space where time can be said to no longer be possible, due to infinite spacial curvature, where outside of those regions, time is a measurable and clearly required quanta.

This is WITHIN A SINGLE UNIVERSE--

Since we can observe this break inside our own universe, we can conclude that an axiom that necessitates other universes to conform must be false.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2015, 01:53:17 am »

I think you've misunderstood what "possible" means in this context.  If statement A could be true then A is possible - A doesn't actually have to be true in every world.  "Time" is not a meaningful statement in any case so you cannot say whether it's possible or not.  If you tried to make a statement like "time is the same everywhere" then it might be possible, but it would be false in our universe due to the things like the example you pointed out.

This statement is not saying that the universe is homogenous everywhere nor that any other world need be the same, it's actually not really saying anything too exciting at all when you break it down.  It's unlikely to be relevant to you unless you're trying to create long logical proofs.
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wierd

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2015, 01:56:35 am »

This seems like special pleading to me.

Time is possible in our universe. Time is also IMPOSSIBLE in our universe. (as I pointed out.)
For the axiom to be true, then time must be possible inside the singularity, because it is inside our universe. But it is not.

Within the world domain of "Our universe", a tautology involving this axiom exists.


As for the assertion of "cant prove time impossible", The relationship between space and time has been well established experimentally. There is infinite space inside the black hole's volume, making time either a coordinate singularity, or making it a non-existant property.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 02:00:29 am by wierd »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2015, 02:07:47 am »

I'm gonna try and say this as nicely as I can: you don't understand what we're talking about here at all.  This is about mathematically building up the fundamental ideas of logic and reasoning, it makes absolutely no statements about the real world or how it operates.
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Mechatronic

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2015, 02:14:44 am »

I see it like this:

Modal logic is about the how the qualifiers possible and necessary work in logic. Under the system S5 those are equivalent across possible worlds.

So if X is possibly true in world A then X is possibly true in all worlds.
If Y is necessarily true in world A then X necessarily true in all worlds.
Also, if Z is not possibly true in world A, then Z is not possibly true in all worlds.
So if it is not possibly true that an immovable object and an unstoppable force both exist in world A, then it is not possibly true in any world.
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wierd

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2015, 02:19:52 am »

And that is the very definition of special pleading.

Your personal definition of what constitutes logic, is not congruent with more established sources.
Wikipedia (yes, I see your eyes rolling) has this to say.

Quote
Logic (from the Ancient Greek: λογική, logike)[1] is the use and study of valid reasoning.[2][3] The study of logic features most prominently in the subjects of philosophy, mathematics, and computer science.

Logic was studied in several ancient civilizations, including India,[4] China,[5] Persia and Greece. In the West, logic was established as a formal discipline by Aristotle, who gave it a fundamental place in philosophy. The study of logic was part of the classical trivium, which also included grammar and rhetoric. Logic was further extended by Al-Farabi who categorized it into two separate groups (idea and proof). Later, Avicenna revived the study of logic and developed relationship between temporalis and the implication. In the East, logic was developed by Buddhists and Jains.

Logic is often divided into three parts: inductive reasoning, abductive reasoning, and deductive reasoning.

Since we are discussing an axiom of modal logic, let's get the established definition of what it is.

Quote
Modal logic is a type of formal logic primarily developed in the 1960s that extends classical propositional and predicate logic to include operators expressing modality. Modals—words that express modalities—qualify a statement. For example, the statement "John is happy" might be qualified by saying that John is usually happy, in which case the term "usually" is functioning as a modal. The traditional alethic modalities, or modalities of truth, include possibility ("Possibly, p", "It is possible that p"), necessity ("Necessarily, p", "It is necessary that p"), and impossibility ("Impossibly, p", "It is impossible that p").[1] Other modalities that have been formalized in modal logic include temporal modalities, or modalities of time (notably, "It was the case that p", "It has always been that p", "It will be that p", "It will always be that p"),[2][3] deontic modalities (notably, "It is obligatory that p", and "It is permissible that p"), epistemic modalities, or modalities of knowledge ("It is known that p")[4] and doxastic modalities, or modalities of belief ("It is believed that p").[5]

A formal modal logic represents modalities using modal operators. For example, "It might rain today" and "It is possible that rain will fall today" both contain the notion of possibility. In a modal logic this is represented as an operator, Possibly, attached to the sentence "It will rain today".

So in essence, Modal Logic is a structured and rigorous exploration of possible states in formal logic.
As pointed out eariler, formal logic is the foundation for Modal logic. Formal logic was created as a basis to establish reason, and one of the foundational types of proof that can be given for logic is a physical one. I just provided a physical proof.

Specifially, I used deductive reasoning to arrive at an uncertainty about this axiom. Since there is uncertainty, the axiom is not necessarily true, and thus cannot be called true.

Quote
Deductive reasoning, also deductive logic or logical deduction or, informally, "top-down" logic,[1] is the process of reasoning from one or more statements (premises) to reach a logically certain conclusion.[2] It differs from inductive reasoning or abductive reasoning.

Deductive reasoning links premises with conclusions. If all premises are true, the terms are clear, and the rules of deductive logic are followed, then the conclusion reached is necessarily true.

Deductive reasoning (top-down logic) contrasts with inductive reasoning (bottom-up logic) in the following way: In deductive reasoning, a conclusion is reached reductively by applying general rules that hold over the entirety of a closed domain of discourse, narrowing the range under consideration until only the conclusion is left. In inductive reasoning, the conclusion is reached by generalizing or extrapolating from initial information. As a result, induction can be used even in an open domain, one where there is epistemic uncertainty. Note, however, that the inductive reasoning mentioned here is not the same as induction used in mathematical proofs – mathematical induction is actually a form of deductive reasoning.

I noted a closed domain-- "Our universe"--  and a feature-- "Time".  Time is both possible and impossible within that closed domain, as I pointed out. For the axiom expressed to be true, then this event cannot occur. It DOES occur, therefore the axiom must be false.

You responded with special pleading.



Basically, I am showing that there is uncertainty about the necessity of the axiom, and thus showing that the axiom can be false, which removes it from candidacy as an axiom.

One could twist this around in a knot, and say that because time can be shown to be possible and also impossible in the same universe, then time must be possible and impossible in all universes, but that is a useless statement. It just means that black holes must exist in all universes, or at least, that all universes must have this kind of inconsistency. This is not true, as mathematically cogent models of universes without these features exist-- which creates a contradiction with this axiom. 

 If we use the other form you quoted:

"If A is possibly necessary, A is necessary" (=> A is true in reality)

We can say that singuarities are possibly necessary, Singularities ARE necessary ==> Singularities exist

But we also have things like Godel spacetime models that fully satisfy the same mathematical fundaments of our spacetime, which are not able to have these kinds of features.

BOOM. Contradiction.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 02:53:03 am by wierd »
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Mechatronic

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2015, 02:51:55 am »

If time exists in the universe, then it is possible that time exists in the universe.
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wierd

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2015, 02:53:59 am »

That's not what the axiom says.

The axiom says that if time is potentially necessary in the universe, that it *IS* necessary in the universe, and thus exists.
There are places in the universe where it (seemingly) does not.


A better counter-argument would be that I have argued myself into a corner with something like this:

"You have just shown that in places where time is necessary, time exists, and in places where it is not necessary, it does not, which satisfies the axiom"

However, both areas are essentially "The same" mathematically. 
« Last Edit: March 09, 2015, 02:58:52 am by wierd »
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Mechatronic

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Re: Argument against Modal logic axiom S5.
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2015, 03:04:01 am »

No-one has stated that time potentially necessarily exists in any possible universe, let alone this one. So it doesn't necessarily have to exist in this one, as we stand.

There are places in the universe where I don't exist, that doesn't mean that I cannot possibly exist in this universe.
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