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[Random_Dragon]

Arcana news:

• It was pointed out that wraithslayer crossbow can't actually use any of the mods it has slots for, because the code that determines what type of gun a ranged weapon is relies on some weird hardcode that makes wraithslayer neither a rifle nor a crossbow. The alternatives I came up with were either set it to use rifle skill (logical as it's the only magic ranged weapon to handle like a mundane one, and I would've gone with that if not for feedback), or instead give it armor_data to make it have its own integrated sling, and change the recipe accordingly. Went with the latter, as it was pointed out that the other mod slots available (grips, stock) are of questionable use to it.
  
• Turns out the pierce value is ignored if you use an explicit ranged_damage block to assign a specific custom damage type instead of the cut damage all range weapons deal normally. HOWEVER, turns out that armor_multiplier works for ranged_damage, so I can use that to give armor piercing via a different route, though it won't be reflected in the pierce stat. Wraithslayer is the only weapon where the piercing is supposed to be high enough to outright make mention of, so its description hints at the statblock not reflecting reality.
  
• At some point Magic Sign: Open Lock broke so damn hard that just trying to view its item description window crashes the game, let alone trying to use it. Cause turned out to be turning it into a comestible so that I wouldn't need to use the weird "pre-activate, wait a turn, then the effect goes off" mechanic I'm normally forced to use to make single-use items single-use. It worked back when I first changed it, but now it doesn't. So back to acting like 90% of magic signs.
  
• I'm gonna have to eventually update EVERY mod I'm in some way involved with to account for the pending PR changing the default turn length from 6 seconds to 1 second. The bulk of that change seems to be just multiplying recipe time by 6, but effects and active items will also need to be fucked with on a case-by-case basis, based on whether any given duration is meant to be a set number of turns vs a set amount of TIME.
  
• Also still made little progress on a new mission chain. It's now more or less set up and planned out, I just have to mainly write new missions and mapgen updates. I also need to plan out a bit of the early stages and other filler mission content, as it's planned that the actual "update the place these NPCs are camped at" stuff will involve less "bring me a million nails" shenanigans and more doing tasks that enable them to do the supply-gathering and labor themselves. Later on I'll have to write up additional new NPCs too, as contacting potential allies and bringing in recruits (also opening up additional missions) will be a big part of the mission chain.
  

[chaoticag]

you can't just repeatedly try and pick a lock until you magically gain skill AND the proficiency.

yes, because no one has ever learned how to do something by attempting it over and over until they figure it out

Starting from first principles with no instructions, no knowledge of technique or even the right tools to start with, you could practice on a lock for days before you got the "knack"

Since I've actually done this, a basic lock can be picked with a bobby pin in under an hour if you know it's possible. Alternatively you can get past just about any lock with a screwdriver and a hammer. Or just a screwdriver if you're on the end with hinges.

[forsaken1111]

you can't just repeatedly try and pick a lock until you magically gain skill AND the proficiency.

yes, because no one has ever learned how to do something by attempting it over and over until they figure it out

Starting from first principles with no instructions, no knowledge of technique or even the right tools to start with, you could practice on a lock for days before you got the "knack"

Since I've actually done this, a basic lock can be picked with a bobby pin in under an hour if you know it's possible. Alternatively you can get past just about any lock with a screwdriver and a hammer. Or just a screwdriver if you're on the end with hinges.

Or just a sledgehammer.

I agree in principle. Some things, skills like sewing or lockpicking, can absolutely be learned by 'just trying and failing'. You will eventually hit upon a method that works if you try long enough. Other skills like "computers" I'd say need some guidance or instruction. It is very unlikely you could sit down at a computer, knowing nothing about computers beyond modern background knowledge of what it is, and do anything remotely useful. It's possible, just highly unlikely.

I don't really understand the point of the skills overhaul either. Is the current one not working well? I'm seeing a trend of overhauling systems just for the sake of overhauling. Normally one would do this because of a specific gameplay reason. What gameplay does this skill overhaul add? What fun is being added? Game development should flow from "How can I make this more fun for the player" not "What seems interesting to me, let's overhaul it".

[dpwb]

Not really my area or my project, but outlined here and here
https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/projects/5

https://discourse.cataclysmdda.org/t/practice-makes-perfect/3509

lol just seen that's 6 years old or so, Kevins had these ideas percolating for ages.

And I just saw this excerpt from that which does acknowledge that yes, some proficiencies could indeed eventually be learned by tinkering, like lockpicking

"Many proficiencies could also be learned from first principles if you have a high enough level in the base skill, eg learning lockpicking by dismantling locks."

ANd others probabyl couldn't , so yeah, it probably does need to be a nuanced scale to various activities.

[n9103]

It would seem like it's part of an overall approach to extend the timeline of a playthrough.
As said earlier, a lot of characters become Übermensch within a month or two.

[forsaken1111]

I guess my point was, is that a problem? Has someone said "Man this is no fun getting all these skills, I wish it took longer"? Has some testing revealed that to be an issue? This is an area that interests me academically, how people make game design decisions. I actually got a degree in it because I find it fascinating.

[n9103]

A lot of people *have* complained about how quick it is.
I can't give anything concrete beyond when I was actively following the DDA community in general, about a year before 0.C, it seemed like the most common non-bug complaint.
I mean, yes, the most common non-bug complaint now is probably how tedious it's become.
I'd view this as a step away from (or at least not towards) tedium, but still towards increasing gameplay longevity.

[Erk]

Yeah, one of my driving forces in becoming a contributor in the first place was wanted to extend the timeframe of the "mid" game, where you have an interesting set of resources but can't do everything yet, to last much longer. I don't think that's all that controversial of a perspective.

In related other news, we went public with the early version of our design doc!

https://cataclysmdda.org/design-doc/

The design doc is meant to answer common gameplay style and lore questions that contributors might have (beware, if you're not looking to write lore, it is chock full of spoilers). While this is the official document, it's still as much a work in progress as anything in the project is. The scope of what's needed is so broad that everyone working on it has had some difficulty deciding exactly what should go in.

I think even in this initial release, it has a lot of useful information both for those working on the game, and for people curious about plans for it. It will never be a conclusive, be-all end-all reference, and as always the last word is going to belong to the project lead. However, for those looking for a clear idea of "the plan" as it is generally agreed upon by the development team, this is as close to a written version of it as exists, and we've all had a hand in writing it. It is likely to continue to be refined and expanded upon over the next few days.

[anexiledone]

I know nothing about coding or github, but an idea that I always thought would flesh out the mid-game would be quality. Just because I can conceptualize a crossbow doesn't mean I'd make one that's any good at the start

Cooking - at 0 skill your meals are bland, you waste time and materials, and because of the waste they aren't as nutritionally filling. These would be "Horrible (Meal name)." As I cook more, and specifically cook that recipe more, I would be less wasteful, it would be cooked properly, and I'd get faster at it

Electronics - Your first crafted electronic devices would be very wasteful, bulky, require frequent repairs, and impact the quality of whatever you're using them for

Survival Tools - Again efficiency. Your crappy smoking rack you threw together because you understand that smoking meat will preserve it sucks. It takes longer to preserve the meat, and sometimes fails to do so before the items expire. It wastes fuel too

Weapons - Poor weapons would be fragile unbalanced and less effective in damage

Armor - More encumbrance, more weight, more volume, less protection, less storage, etc

Etc

You could even turn this into a whole new sub system of crafting skills. You would gain theory from crafting or reading, and you'd gain practical from disassembling higher quality items or using poor quality items

Just a thought. I don't think things need to be gated to improve the skill systems. I think the skill system just needs to have more depth to it

[scourge728]

I'm still trying to figure out what the doc means by " leading to absurdities like a wooden wood axe." shouldn't a wooden axe be made of wood?

[Rolan7]

Sounds like they mean the cutting bit of the wooden wood-axe is wood, which is silly outside Minecraft.
(wood axe means axe meant to cut wood instead of people)
And now "wood" looks meaningless to me.

[ollobrains]

Sounds like they mean the cutting bit of the wooden wood-axe is wood, which is silly outside Minecraft.
(wood axe means axe meant to cut wood instead of people)
And now "wood" looks meaningless to me.

what type of wood wood lol ?

[scriver]

How much wood wood a wood wood wood if a wood wood wood wood wood?

[AzyWng]

I'm still trying to figure out what the doc means by " leading to absurdities like a wooden wood axe." shouldn't a wooden axe be made of wood?

I personally think the doc refers to the fact you can somehow carve the wood and sticks into an axe with only the aid of something that’s also made of wood (though the texture for the crafting table does show metal tools on it that come from seemingly nowhere).

[forsaken1111]

I'm still trying to figure out what the doc means by " leading to absurdities like a wooden wood axe." shouldn't a wooden axe be made of wood?

A 'wood axe' is a specific type of axe, not meant to imply the axe itself is made of wood. Yes, English is stupid. Yes, I understand you may have been joking. I'm clarifying anyway because I've run into this before in other games with non-native English speakers who thought 'wood axe' meant an axe made of wood.

Incidentally you CAN make an axe analogue out of wood, for some definitions of 'axe'. With bamboo or some types of hardwood there are ways to make an adze out of wood which can fell a tree. Tedious and not very sturdy but workable.