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Author Topic: The Eldritch Horror Thread!  (Read 29343 times)

wierd

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #150 on: March 07, 2015, 05:09:01 am »

I gathered that.  Henderson is the kind of thing I personally would do as well in that circumstance.   I despise DMs that can't adapt to monkey wrenches, and who resort to blatant plot devices without any justification to get their way to "Re-rail" the "story."

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Xantalos

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #151 on: March 07, 2015, 05:32:31 am »

I don't think it was plot devices so much as just killing characters in increasingly implausible ways really frequently, but then again in CoC that's a plot device in and of itself.
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scrdest

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #152 on: March 07, 2015, 06:00:40 am »

Yeah Lovecraft either made nerds really badass or really insane/dead in his mythos.
I've recently read that he and then-teenage Robert Bloch, another pulp writer, had a rather amusing thing where they would kill off each other's thinly veiled stand-ins in short stories, so that even extends to *himself*.
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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #153 on: March 07, 2015, 06:24:18 am »

Eurgh, turns out looking at pictures of the Brown Jenkin late at night is not a good idea.

Darn it, Lovecraft. Why are your creatures so gross?

Also Lovecraft killed his stand-in (Randolph Carter) so hard that he doesn't even have an identity anymore. That counts for something, right?
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Neonivek

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #154 on: March 07, 2015, 07:06:40 am »

I gathered that.  Henderson is the kind of thing I personally would do as well in that circumstance.   I despise DMs that can't adapt to monkey wrenches, and who resort to blatant plot devices without any justification to get their way to "Re-rail" the "story."

Ignoring once again... that the DM fully allowed and supported Henderson.

I know this because I know system and the game well enough to know flat out impossible it was for him to do half the crud he pulled. (and by half I mean all)

So please stop referencing it as if it was otherwise... as if he was some great hilarious character who managed to beat the system and do hilarious things. NOPE! It was Henderson and the DM together outright ignoring the rules to make it happen.

Quote
Sounds like the DM has no sense of humor.  I would have had a BLAST with Old Man Henderson

Sure... Just have a player outright seek to destroy your game, your tone, your other PCs, all because he would rather be playing something else. What an example/

The DM of the "Old Man Henderson" game was a troll.

But that is just one of the many reasons why I believe that the story was outright fake. Since either the GM was in on it, whether directly or indirectly, or it didn't happen.

---

As for "It would be a BLAST!!!"

Not really. The game has two major draws as a game beyond the obvious mythos
1) It is a game about investigation and essentially detective work.
2) It is a game about finding alternative solutions to problems that would otherwise be solved by brute force.

And you are using a character... Who can do neither of those things and who actively circumvents both of those.

It REALLY requires the GM to back up your character, by bending the universe backwards until it can smell what it ate for lunch, in order to make such a character function in a typical CoC game. Since it NEEDS you to allow the character to have unlimited and unfettered access to weapons and explosives, it requires you to make all problems solved by explosives, requires you to make all enemies solved by explosives, and requires you to never attack old man Henderson with... I don't know... weapons, spells, or stiff winds that would kill or injure him.

Seriously just play Gurps if you want a Old Man Henderson character.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 07:15:15 am by Neonivek »
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HavingPhun

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #155 on: March 07, 2015, 12:37:09 pm »

I had downloaded "The Mountains of Madness" a time ago and had always said I would read it. I finally did and it was great. Before then I had only known of Lovecraft because of people referencing to him. I have now downloaded a pdf with almost all of his works in it. They are all great so far. It is too bad that he did not gain huge amounts of fame during his lifetime, he deserves it. His books and stories are wonderful.
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wierd

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #156 on: March 07, 2015, 12:53:02 pm »

I understand that the DM invested time and energy in creating a scenario (I have thought up quite a few, and even worked a bit on creating brand new game systems, even though I dont personally play--  I understand the work he invested.) however, spontaneity, and completely batshit choices of players are part and parcel of a good Pen and Paper experience.  If you want a hard-scripted game, you are better off with an "on-rails" computer game.

Yes, he allowed the character to exist, believing he could simply kill the character, and move along. When that didn't happen, he didn't lighten up at all.  The "This is serious, bro!" attitude of many DMs, when it is clear that at least some of your players would prefer a more light-hearted (and by that I mean farcical) play experience, which they blatantly ignore because they totally want to stick to the script, is what causes this kind of altercation.  Sheer blind luck allowed Henderson to stay going, along with the DM's unwillingness to actually read and properly enforce the character's backstory.  (Absurd characters are fine, as long as they stay to their own backstories IMHO. I remember hearing another infamous tale about an AD&D sorc. character that had suffered a magical accident, and now had Multiple Personality Disorder every time he cast a spell, each with a different manifest behavioral disorder of their own-- Controlled by a random spinner wheel the player had cobbled together.  This sorc ended up trying to have intercourse with an offering box linked to a plane of hell, and losing his genitals, IIRC, after spinning "inappropriate sexual conduct" or something like that.  Reading that story was about as amusing as reading the tale of Old Man Henderson last night. The sorc stayed in the lines of his backstory, and it was fine as far as I am concerned.) Instead, he was cocky, and sure of himself that he could just kill off whatever abomination the player had created with the equivalent of a deus-ex-machina, and get back to HIS story.

That is not how things turned out, through not only outright fabrication on the part of the player, but the player character being radically OP. (Seriously, I am a very skilled person personally, so I know how time constraints on a person's life limits ones actual desired pursuits.  Henderson would not have been able to exist, AND have his weed intoxicated leisurely lifestyle), and sheer dumb luck.  But Henderson was a farce-- always was intended as such, and was designed to be as disruptive as possible.  Kudos to the DM for allowing him, but bad on the DM for refusing to read all 300 pages of backstory, and chart out the character. Personally, I would have told the player who created him that I would allow him in, AFTER reading and digesting the backstory-- and since it was so long, that would be after tonight's game session. That isn't how it turned out, the DM cut corners feeling cocky, and got burned in exactly the way this farce character was intended burn him.

Part of being a good DM is helping the players have what THEY want from the game time, so that it is enjoyable. Having a stick up your ass does not accomplish this, which is exactly why Henderson was created in the first place. The rest of the job is creating a baseline scenario that the players can either pursue or ignore-- and then enforcing game rules and mechanics. The DM of games like these, with cultists doing seriously screwed up shit, needs to be flexible and rational about his scenario, and what its consequences are.

Take for instance, the cliche "Cultists are summoning eldritch Great Old One [insert name] in the basement of [place] that is near to where the protagonists are-- (naturally)." The protagonists DONT do any investigation at all, and the summoning happens. Now they have no choice but to become involved, as the great old one manifests, and goes to town.  The cop-out DM will just end the game here, but this is foolish IMHO.  Many of lovecraft's stories START with a successful summoning of a great old one for some purpose-- Like Dunwich Horror. (How did his daughter get knocked up by Yog Sothoth, without Whateley first performing a summoning? Etc.) Not to mention that clearly these kinds of summonings have been happening for some time, as the incantations and spells used to do them are tried and true--  The reason why the Old Ones dont just take over is because the stars aren't right yet. (Lovecraft has outright said so in his mythos.)  So, rather than cop-out with 'Game over, you guys suck, this is what you get for not playing my game", what I personally would do, is begin spontaneously creating new story that forcibly involves the player characters simply by the cult doing what the cult wants to do.  Such as, once again with the dunwich horror short story, having one of the resulting monsters go on a rampage and tear shit up, but not cause TOTAL destruction.   You do this by having deep backstory into why the cultists are doing what they are doing. With a stated goal of their group, it is easier to create new content on the fly that is consistent and believable.  It is important to know when to let go of the scenario you have worked up, and dive headfirst into content creation on the fly, when your players require it.

The stated goals you put forth:
1) It is a game about investigation and essentially detective work.
2) It is a game about finding alternative solutions to problems that would otherwise be solved by brute force.

Has a  hard "On rails" component with 1).  There's more than one way to get caught up with the cult, and then subsequently put it down. Being FORCED to do gumeshoe work is a pathology of a bad GM, and is in this way counterintuitive to your point 2)-- Finding alternative solutions where brute force would solve problems.  Brute force takes many forms, including being an abusive GM.

What I am geting at, is that the GM needs to be willing and able to take a third option, if and when his players NEED him to, and continue down the new road this option creates, leaving the written scenario behind as little more but reference material for locations, items, and motives.

The GM in the Old Man Henderson story is forced to do this, but is dragged kicking and screaming the whole way, rather than going willingly.  Again, personally, I would have had a blast with this. After the systematic destruction of a few cult centers, I would have sent high ranking members of the cult to other geographic localities outside the immediate area with news of the distrubances, had them make phone calls (modern setting, after all), Leverage mass mind contamination by exploiting image boards (in story) with memes containing imagery that cause SAN damage to recruit new fodder worldwide through mental compulsion (See the sensation of "What color is the dress!?" recently.  Now, imagine a "WTF is this!?" sensation, where part of the image contains magic crazy, which then causes lots and lots of NPCs world wide research the image components, and have some significant portion fail their SAN checks, and become compelled to serve the cult through additional image board postings later-- etc. )  and in general, make the localized brute damage of actions like Henderson not be such a high focus.  Cauterize, control, continue. The loss of the local branch of the cult is acceptable, as long as the cult's goals continue to be served; step up the timetable of the local cult's activities, etc. You do this by having the cult go underground, WITHOLDING leads, and progressing the cult's goals to the point where direct involvement is no longer avoidable.  Remember, the cult will be investigating the protagonists, even if the protagonists are stumped in investigating the cult!

When I create a scenario, I do it "The tolkien way", where I amass a huge amount of related bits of backstory matter, and then assemble a plot with those elements.  All the data is "True"--  and used as needed when a question arises.  It takes me months to create a good scenario. To me, a "Good" scenario is freeform, free flowing, and dynamic.  It responds to the unexpected because it does not have rails, it is built on consequences and motives.  I keep a separation between "Story", and "Data."  What's inside containers, who knows what kinds of magic, --- that's all data.  Why a person does something, and how they interact with other people-- that's story. I compile huge-- HUUUGE amounts of data, make an indexed notebook with sections to quickly access it, then keep another notebook to track story with.  There's the scenario you start with, and there's the story you end with.  A good GM often has these two things being different-- at least in my opinion.  It allows replay of the same base scenario with different characters and motives, without getting stale as quickly.


@havingPhun

Lovecraft begins to feel too formulaic over time. Contrived sources of people going mad, tortured use of adjectives (Seriously, do you know what "cyclopean" means, as he uses it?  It's JUST stonework that does not follow a regular pattern. How that is supposed to instil fear I dont fathom-- etc.)  His critics often called him "The father of tortured adjectives" and the like.  Many of his short stories are quite compelling, and sadly tragic- but after awhile, the start to all feel the same. (Has read pretty much every single one of his stories)
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Neonivek

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #157 on: March 07, 2015, 12:58:11 pm »

Quote
Yes, he allowed the character to exist, believing he could simply kill the character, and move along. When that didn't happen, he didn't lighten up at all.

Then the story is a load of BS and never happened.

Remember the first encounter he "survived" was two Shoggoths and a bunch of armed cultists.

Quote
Has a  hard "On rails" component with 1).  There's more than one way to get caught up with the cult, and then subsequently put it down. Being FORCED to do gumeshoe work is a pathology of a bad GM, and is in this way counterintuitive to your point 2)-- Finding alternative solutions where brute force would solve problems.  Brute force takes many forms, including being an abusive GM

Don't PLAY Call of Cthulhu...

If you do not want to investigate and you do not want to find solutions that aren't "Guns a blazing!" do not play a game ABOUT those.

It doesn't matter if you think the GM is bad, that is the clear intent of the game and you joined the game with the intent to ignore it.

He isn't the "Good guy getting revenge on a terrible GM" even if the story was true.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 01:03:17 pm by Neonivek »
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Fniff

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #158 on: March 07, 2015, 12:59:53 pm »

To me, if it didn't happen, it didn't happen. That doesn't change anything for me about the story itself.

Neonivek

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #159 on: March 07, 2015, 01:02:28 pm »

To me, if it didn't happen, it didn't happen. That doesn't change anything for me about the story itself.

It kind of defeats the entire purpose of the story which is "One play destroying an entire game in an elaborate and glorious fashion"

When in fact... if it DID happen... It could only happen if the GM allowed it to happen in its entirety (because there are several points where the game should have ended or where the "solutions" listed do not work).

It has too many issues for it to be a true story as written.

---

But lets address "Brute force IS another solution"

He chose to use Brute Force before learning about the situation (and if he did, it was not the way to go about the situation). Thank goodness the police didn't investigate.

In the two adventures in 7th ed, one certainly expects you to use combat (you don't have to, it is just the most obvious solution. Heck there is easily accessible explosives to aid in this), but the situation isn't "AHHH I AM LEROY JENKINS DIE DIE DIE SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT!" it is "Ohh is this the situation? Do we know their capabilities? Ok lets do this right". In fact there are several points where if you don't go "AHHH GUN SHOOT SHOOOOOOOT!" you will do better.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 01:09:55 pm by Neonivek »
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Fniff

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #160 on: March 07, 2015, 01:05:07 pm »

It kind of defeats the entire purpose of the story which is "One play destroying an entire game in an elaborate and glorious fashion"
I wouldn't agree with that.

Neonivek

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #161 on: March 07, 2015, 01:05:54 pm »

It kind of defeats the entire purpose of the story which is "One play destroying an entire game in an elaborate and glorious fashion"
I wouldn't agree with that.

Ehh fair enough.
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Fniff

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #162 on: March 07, 2015, 01:07:48 pm »

It kind of defeats the entire purpose of the story which is "One play destroying an entire game in an elaborate and glorious fashion"
I wouldn't agree with that.
Ehh fair enough.
I'm glad we came to a mutual agreement. :D

wierd

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #163 on: March 07, 2015, 01:09:41 pm »

Neon-- You missed my point about "Third options" entirely.

You are still thinking "Either investigation OR brute force".  There are *ALWAYS* additional options that can be explored. That is what I was getting at.  Forcing a binary choice is a sign of a bad GM. You are ignoring that a person can be caught up in neck deep crazy by pure chance.  The lost motorist who pulls up to the secluded mansion in mid-summoning ritual who knocks and asks to use the phone-- if you want a cliche method. He does not expect shoggoths and nameless things to be be serving as the maid and butler respectively--- But that's what he gets treated to when the door opens at his knocking. 

Note the absurdity of the image on the right side of the TVTropes page I linked, where the character responds with the batshit answer of "I would pee on everything."  A bad DM would say something like "You pee on the shoggoth, it gets mad, it rips you to shreds and you die horrible. Roll a new character."   A Third Option friendly DM would evaluate if the urine had any adverse effect on the shoggoth, or even if the shoggoth would find the action offensive (It being an alien form of life, after all. It might actually ENJOY the action.)



« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 01:14:22 pm by wierd »
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Neonivek

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Re: The Eldritch Horror Thread!
« Reply #164 on: March 07, 2015, 01:11:40 pm »

"Investigation" in Call of Cthulhu isn't "optional" it is the point of the game.

It is always part of the solution.

It would be like creating a Dungeons and Dragons game without combat. "Ohh I created a commoner in this level 10 game. Sorry DM but your a BAD DM if you do not support my decision and make me awesome and the solution to everything"

There are plenty of solutions that could have been found. If you read the story correctly the players were setting something up.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2015, 01:13:38 pm by Neonivek »
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