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[hector13]

That is my opinion. There is no actual proof that he lied. That is why I voted peradon over TDS because there was a chance that he was telling the truth. I've mentioned this several times already.

Indeed. You also said you believed TDS wasn't telling the truth, several times already. For example, here, here, here, here and here. You weren't convinced TDS was being honest, with the only inference anyone can make from that being that you think he was being dishonest, or, more simply, lying.

Town have no reason to lie, but they are allowed emotional responses. Why is an emotional response scummier than lying?

[origamiscienceguy]

I THOUGHT HE WAS LYING, BUT THERE WAS A CHANCE THAT HE WASN'T. (hopefully you'll see it this time)

Peradon's emotional responce was giving up, which town has no reason to do.

[hector13]

Why is an emotional response scummier than lying?

[origamiscienceguy]

It is not.

[hector13]

Jesus fuck Origami was that so hard? If I have to ask you every question a handful of times, this is going to take a fucking age.

Now, given you seem to like statistics, there was a chance that (given how we're all humans and are prone to emotional outbursts) Perry's reaction to realising he was going to get lynched, because of two deadline changed votes, was town motivated. Does that sound reasonable? If so, next paragraph, otherwise, why not?

Why is that chance of a town-motivated emotional reaction more scummy than the chance that someone might be lying, which is arguably never town-motivated?

[origamiscienceguy]

Now, given you seem to like statistics, there was a chance that (given how we're all humans and are prone to emotional outbursts) Perry's reaction to realising he was going to get lynched, because of two deadline changed votes, was town motivated. Does that sound reasonable? If so, next paragraph, otherwise, why not?

There was a chance that Peradon was Town (obviously) But, I do not see any way in which Peradon purposefully did those actions to benefit the town. So no, I don't think that his actions were town motivated.

[origamiscienceguy]

Do you see any reason that peradon might have purposefully gave up, or used guilt tactics, to increase the town's chance at winning?

[4maskwolf]

oh Jesus Christ you two...

This was a post I was trying to post earlier but the wifi at the ski lodge was fucking with me and I couldn't.

As I said, and as anyone who's played with me for a long time can tell you, I'm not good with words.  "Wishy-washy" was my phrase I used to mean "lazy voting patterns without reasoning, usually involving changing votes without a clear reason".  Which still doesn't say exactly what I meant by it, but what have you.  You'll note that in the time between my vote and unvote on OSG he responded to a question, which gave me information with which to make a new decision, and my reason for unvoting was because of that, whereas Peradon, who I called "wishy-washy" stated his reason for unvoting as "Everyone else says Shakerag is like this" and only later said that he'd done his own research and thinking on the matter.

Also, I hate to interfere, but to avoid frustration on both sides I'm going to say this: OSG is explaining his logic behind it.  He has several times.  We may call bullshit on it and not think it is legitimate, but he is explaining it.  What he's basically been saying is, and correct me if I'm wrong OSG, "I was uncertain about TDS and the guilt-trip was egregious enough to make me think Peradon was more scummy."  But more to the point, what you said there about him not explaining is blatantly false.

This next part is me speaking out of exasperation and as an outside observer, so I may be entirely wrong.  Who knows.

hector, origami, you're both talking past each other.  origami, I see where you're coming from, even if I don't agree with you.  But you're bunkering down behind a point that, from my perspective, is impossible to defend.  hector13, I see where you are coming from too, but you're missing the point behind OSG's argument.  And OSG, in turn, is missing the point behind yours.

Let me put this in very blatant terms for the two of you.  I may be misrepresenting your points, but I'm tired and in a bad mood and don't care.  There is no way to deter grumpitude at this point.

For origamiscienceguy: hector is saying that even though the book says giving up is scummy, it is a natural human reaction to facing an impossible situation, and that his giving up could have been just a town member's response to perceived inevitability.  No, that doesn't mean that he should have given up, but that's not the point: the point is that both town and scum do that, so how is such an action more scummy than a possible lie, as both have possibilities either way.

For hector13: origamiscienceguy is saying that from his view, taking an anti-town action is scummier than possible lying, especially when the motivation behind said anti-town action is impossible to discern.  In the case we have here, Peradon gave up, which is an action that benefits the town not at all and can possibly benefit the scum with confusion if done by town, which FOR HIM warranted a vote over the possibility that TDS was lying about something, the truth behind which was also impossible to determine.

[TheDarkStar]

I'm still catching up and going through Day 1. Owing to time restrictions, I've only gone through 4mask's, Shakerag's, and Varee's posts.

May I ask why?

First three on the list.


Going through Day 1 events person-by-person (and skipping off-topic or irrelevant posts), he's an overview of what has happened:

Spoiler: 4maskwolf (click to show/hide)

Post 162: Responds to my RVS response and transitions out of RVS by seriously voting for me.
Post 169: Says that I'm being too responsive.
Post 192: tells Peradon that Peradon is misusing post analysis.
Post 211: Asks people to share relevant information
Post 237: Requests a policy lynch of Shakerag.
Post 267: Asks everyone for reads.
Post 283: Reads. They basically match the current events except OSG and flabort are rated townier in this earlier post.
Post 371: Talks about why OSG is scummy
Post 358, 364: Scumhunts Peradon
Post 371: switches vote from me to Peradon for Peradon's lack of a case and lack of defense

Questions: What are your current reads of Persus, Tiruin, and DA? (They were marked as neutral due to a lack of content in your previous list of reads.)

Spoiler: Shakerag (click to show/hide)

Post 187: Votes for Peradon (and this one stays there for the rest of the day), FoSes OSG.
Post 197: Doesn't vote, but does accuse/berate 4mask and Peradon.
Post 201: Responding to Peradon and OSG.
Post 288: Responds to a lot of people. FoSes OSG.
Post 327: Questions flabort.
Post 366: FoSes DA, questions Varee, flabort, and Peradon.
Post 368: Clarifies sarcasm.
Post 370: Requests a response from Peradon.
Post 393: Says he is suspicious of DA because DA isn't paying attention. Also requests a response from Peradon.

Questions: What made you leave your vote on Peradon after RVS? What are your reads of people right now?

Spoiler: Varee (click to show/hide)

Post 175, 178: Talking about how to play Day 1.
Post 190: Asks NQT about scumteam/third party presence.
Post 212: Explains why he doesn't want a lynch.
Post 216: Explains why he doesn't want a lynch.
Post 223: Explains why he doesn't want a lynch.
Post 247: Hypothesizes about scumkills.
Post 261: Hypothesizes about Hector lying about getting a flaw.
Post 300: Says that he will post reads. This never happened. Also, mentions reservations about voting is is afraid that someone will take it.

Questions: What are your reads? Why didn't you scumhunt at all?

Spoiler: OSG (click to show/hide)

Post 161, 163: Responds to my response to his RVS question.
Post 195, 196: Speculating on the game.
Post 199, 200: Responding to Shakerag, Peradon, Persus.
Post 206: Speculating on why Deathsword died.
Post 214: FoSes me but doesn't immediately explain why.
Post 217: Says why he initially became suspicious of me.
Post 222: Says I'm desperate and votes for me.
Post 227: Post analysis of my first big post this game.
Post 229: Says my RVS questions were meaningless and he was pointing it out to show that I've done nothing meaningful.
Post 240: Saying that my RVS questions were scummy.
Post 243: Speculating on why Deathsword died.
Post 270, 282: Reads. Notably, most people are somewhere around neutral to scummy except for 4mask.
Post 272, 275: Talking about people revealing their mask by saying if they were targeted by something.
Post 294: Responding to my post.
Post 299: Saying why he voted for me.
Post 315: Asking Peradon for reads.
Post 321: Explaining game things to Peradon.
Post 335: Explains his vote on me and questioned why I kept my vote on him if everyone else disagreed.
Post 343, 347, 349: Saying that he does not think the vote I say was RVS was RVS.
Post 360: Questions 4maskwolf about 4mask not mentioning a scumtell that OSG showed.
Post 373: Switches vote to Peradon, explains that Peradon gave up.
Post 375: Explaining why he switched his vote to Peradon.
Post 378, 379: Requesting that people who haven't voted vote and not extend any more.
Post 388, 390: Saying Peradon is scum for attempting to guilt-trip 4mask.

Spoiler: flabort (click to show/hide)

Post 168: Voting for me because of my RVS actions and discussing the game with Varee.
Post 180: Clarifying game mechanics for Varee.
Post 218: Accusing Shakerag of sarcasm misuse and discussing game events.
Post 236: Accusing 4mask of buddying Peradon and OSG of chainsaw defending Shakerag. Notes that he'd like to see Shakerag dead after me.
Post 246: Speculating on why DS could have died and noting that we can't know what really happened yet.
Post 292: Mentioning that he went overboard with links. I agree  .
Post 295: Detailed reads, although not all of the citations make sense.
Post 319: Responding to Peradon about why taking flaws isn't scummy.
Post 328: Saying tunneling is scummy.
Post 332, 341, 351: Responding to me and saying why he thinks I'm scummy.
Post 357: Responding to me and Persus.
Post 385: Responding to 4mask about tunneling.

Spoiler: hector13 (click to show/hide)

Post 224: Offers me a shovel. (I don't accept the offer, sorry.)
Post 252, 254, 256, 258, 260, 264: Talks about how he got Guilty Conscience and explains that he won't vote for that reason.
Post 269: Reads. Null on Persus and Tiruin.
Post 271, 274: Discussing the fact that he revealed that he was targeted.
Post 278: Explains why he wants to vote for me.
Post 290, 291: Talking about my problematic post. The first post discusses formatting, the second discusses reaction voting. (No, I still don't want a shovel.)
Post 387, 391: Asks OSG why he thinks Peradon's one action is scummier than me.

Questions: What are your current reads? Why haven't you scumhunted very much?

Spoiler: Tiruin (click to show/hide)

Post 181: Answers questions, mostly RVS ones.
Post 251: Talks about DS's death.
Post 253, 259: Talks about Hector revealing why he wasn't voting.
Post 263, 265: Discussing whether or not Persus lied about what happened to him.
Post 326: Announces that she is back after net issues.
Post 359: Says that she is having net issues and so won't be posting much.

Questions: What are your reads? What do you think of Peradon's death?

Spoiler: DA (click to show/hide)

Post 210: Speculates on why DS died.
Post 289: Says he's catching up.
Post 325: Asks why people think I'm scummy. Says that he started with unable to vote. Says that he doesn't think I'm scummy.
Post 383: Says that he doesn't think me or Peradon are scum.
Post 386: Complains that he missed who's dead and who's not.

Spoiler: Persus13 (click to show/hide)

Post 173: Tells Varee that a Day 1 lynch is a good idea.
Post 228, 238: Responds to Peradon and OSG.
Post 314: Explaining his extend.
Post 317: Criticizes 4mask for accusing me of active-lurking so quickly. Votes for Peradon. Responds to several people.
Post 352, 353: Questions and votes for flabort.

Spoiler: Reads (click to show/hide)

4maskwolf: Town lean due to scumhunting.
Shakerag: Mild town lean for some scumhunting, but he hasn't been here much.
Varee: Third party lean for odd play.
OSG: Mild town lean for his massive amount of posts but lack of much scumhunting.
flabort: Null read. Not much content or scumhunting.
hector: Mild town read for some questioning of people, but low content.
Tiruin: Null read due to her net issues.
DA: Null read due to lack of content (5 posts so far?)
Persus: Oddly defensive of me. Slight scum lean for this, but not enough to warrant a vote.

I'll have to go through things again and especially look at Shakerag, OSG, and 4maskwolf because they voted for a mislynch and flabort for wanting to join the wagon on me. I'll also take Day 2 into account. Unfortunately, it's getting late here, so that will come later.

[4maskwolf]

TheDarkStar: I'll need them to actually post today to get a read on them.  Tiruin is out right now, Persus is who knows where, and Asmoth needs to post more, but I'm leaning slightly town on Deus Asmoth.

[Deus Asmoth]

Now, given you seem to like statistics, there was a chance that (given how we're all humans and are prone to emotional outbursts) Perry's reaction to realising he was going to get lynched, because of two deadline changed votes, was town motivated. Does that sound reasonable? If so, next paragraph, otherwise, why not?

There was a chance that Peradon was Town (obviously) But, I do not see any way in which Peradon purposefully did those actions to benefit the town. So no, I don't think that his actions were town motivated.

Was lynching someone who was exhibiting an emotional reaction really a better choice that lynching someone you thought was probably lying, since you were reading him as scum anyway and it would have cleared up whether he was lying or not?

[hector13]

Now, given you seem to like statistics, there was a chance that (given how we're all humans and are prone to emotional outbursts) Perry's reaction to realising he was going to get lynched, because of two deadline changed votes, was town motivated. Does that sound reasonable? If so, next paragraph, otherwise, why not?

There was a chance that Peradon was Town (obviously) But, I do not see any way in which Peradon purposefully did those actions to benefit the town. So no, I don't think that his actions were town motivated.

Was lynching someone who was exhibiting an emotional reaction really a better choice that lynching someone you thought was probably lying, since you were reading him as scum anyway and it would have cleared up whether he was lying or not?

This is basically what I was moving toward with all that nonsense.

Now I understand why Origami was avoiding answering my question, because it was basically incriminating himself, but yeah, I got a bit carried away with making him answer it, which made it look as though I wasn't paying attention to what he was saying.

I was it just didn't matter what he said about it, because lying is much, much worse than giving up 5 hours before the deadline because two people changed their vote. Which is why my vote remains on Origami.

[4maskwolf]

I was it just didn't matter what he said about it, because lying is much, much worse than giving up 5 hours before the deadline because two people changed their vote. Which is why my vote remains on Origami.

inb4 guilty conscience lolz.

Could everyone post update reads lists?  Mine hasn't changed since the one after D2 starts.

[hector13]

Spoiler: hector13 (click to show/hide)

Post 224: Offers me a shovel. (I don't accept the offer, sorry.)
Post 252, 254, 256, 258, 260, 264: Talks about how he got Guilty Conscience and explains that he won't vote for that reason.
Post 269: Reads. Null on Persus and Tiruin.
Post 271, 274: Discussing the fact that he revealed that he was targeted.
Post 278: Explains why he wants to vote for me.
Post 290, 291: Talking about my problematic post. The first post discusses formatting, the second discusses reaction voting. (No, I still don't want a shovel.)
Post 387, 391: Asks OSG why he thinks Peradon's one action is scummier than me.

Questions: What are your current reads? Why haven't you scumhunted very much?

I'll do reads later, little busy right now, but to answer your second question (and an I apologise for the language; tired Scotsman) no cunt is posting.

I can't ask questions of anyone beyond 4mask (of whom I would say I've scumhunted, a little more aggressively than I would have liked but I still did it) and Origami (of whom I... was probably tunneling, but he's my top scum-read right now) because they were the only ones posting.

[Varee]

I keep trying to complie a read list and giving up, there just not really anything I feel like is telling me someone is town or scum. The whole actively hunting is a town thing and lazy backseat is scummy doesnt really work for me.
Hector and OSG just have massive amount of post that dont really have much content i think.
Wolf have been interacting with many, same as flabort.
Shakerag Ds and tirurin isnt here much.
myself also dont really have much to offer in term of content.
I dont really see how you could compile a read list from the exchanges, I feel the read people have been compiling is either base on policy or is biased ....


Maybe it only me but the only thing am waiting for is someone to start demanding a mass claim and compare info .....