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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Graknorke]

a source being unreliable, and a source being wrong, or even just inaccurate, are separate events. A reliable source can be wrong, and an unreliable source can be right.

Well if something is in any way wrong it stops being the perfect divine truth. It's a bit of a unique case since not many texts actually claim to be that.

[lemon10]

Well the lady who poisoned him told him it was poisoned and his m8 who also ate the lamb died almost immediately after eating it too

Muhammad[n 1] (Arabic: محمد‎; c. 570 CE – 8 June 632 CE),[1] is the central figure of Islam and widely regarded as its founder.[2][3] He is known to Muslims as the "Holy Prophet", almost all of whom[n 2] consider him to be the last prophet sent by God to mankind.

A few months after the farewell pilgrimage, Muhammad fell ill and suffered for several days with fever, head pain, and weakness.[194] He died on Monday, 8 June 632, in Medina, at the age of 62 or 63, in the house of his wife Aisha.[196] With his head resting on Aisha's lap, he asked her to dispose of his last worldly goods (seven coins), then spoke his final words:

Methinks that you are thinking of a different prophet, as this one does seem to have died of natural causes.

[Rolan7]

That's a false analogy.

Ironically, that's also a false analogy. The gospels were written a few years after the fact, and the Iliad/Odyssey were written centuries down the track by an unrelated third party who was compiling stories passed down over that time. There's a decent chance Homer himself knew what he was writing was corrupted and unreliable.

I'm not saying it's definitely perfect, but the NT in general has a darn sight more historicity than ancient Greek epics. It's an awful comparison.

If you want to compare it to the Old Testament, then you might have a better argument, at least with Genesis etc. Stuff like Chronicles, Daniel, Ezra, and a number of the prophecies were written down at or close to the time of occurrence, and match up (at least a little) with other sources from around the time.

... A few decades, maybe?  Like 40 at the earliest for Matthew and Luke
http://www.bc.edu/schools/stm/crossroads/resources/birthofjesus/intro/the_dating_of_thegospels.html
I'm no expert but I've "always heard" this, which I know isn't an argument

And I don't know much about Greek mythology either but I assume the Illiad and Oddysey were compiled from stories which were known and celebrated by the general populace, instead of what a tiny group of furtive worshipers decided to write down about their Messiah in their secret local meetings.  Obviously the Illiad's supernatural elements were bogus, but it'd be kinda amazing if the Trojan War was completely made up.

Meanwhile there are strong cases that "Jesus" was an amalgation of multiple people of the time (And I don't mean the pre-existing savior gods his story is suspiciously similar to, I mean actual people).

[Loud Whispers]

Well the lady who poisoned him told him it was poisoned and his m8 who also ate the lamb died almost immediately after eating it too

Muhammad[n 1] (Arabic: محمد‎; c. 570 CE – 8 June 632 CE),[1] is the central figure of Islam and widely regarded as its founder.[2][3] He is known to Muslims as the "Holy Prophet", almost all of whom[n 2] consider him to be the last prophet sent by God to mankind.

A few months after the farewell pilgrimage, Muhammad fell ill and suffered for several days with fever, head pain, and weakness.[194] He died on Monday, 8 June 632, in Medina, at the age of 62 or 63, in the house of his wife Aisha.[196] With his head resting on Aisha's lap, he asked her to dispose of his last worldly goods (seven coins), then spoke his final words:

Methinks that you are thinking of a different prophet, as this one does seem to have died of natural causes.

Quoting wikipedia ever? Taking it at face value ever? You dastardly cancer upon information D:<

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith, Volume 3, 786
A Jewess brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, "Shall we kill her?" He said, "No." I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah's Apostle.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith, Volume 5, 713
'Umar bin Al-Khattab used to let Ibn Abbas sit beside him, so 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Auf said to 'Umar, "We have sons similar to him." 'Umar replied, "(I respect him) because of his status that you know." 'Umar then asked Ibn 'Abbas about the meaning of this Holy Verse: "When comes the help of Allah and the Conquest of Mecca . . ." (110.1)
Ibn 'Abbas replied, "That indicated the death of Allah's Apostle which Allah informed him of." 'Umar said, "I do not understand of it except what you understand."
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet in his ailment in which he died, used to say, "O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison."

N A T U R A L   C A U S E S

[lemon10]

After doing some research, he died three years after the supposed poisoning. The proponents of him dying from the poison say that it took three years to kill him (and that god was protecting him until he completed his mission), but it seems far more likely that he simply died of unrelated causes three years later. So yeah, he didn't die immediately after the poisoning like you said he did.

[TD1]

If we start going by what seems more reasonable, the Bible falls apart.

[Loud Whispers]

After doing some research, he died three years after the supposed poisoning.

Do more research m8

The proponents of him dying from the poison say that it took three years to kill him (and that god was protecting him until he completed his mission), but it seems far more likely that he simply died of unrelated causes three years later.

""No." I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah's Apostle."
U N R E L A T E D   C A U S E S

So yeah, he didn't die immediately after the poisoning like you said he did.

No I said his m8 died immediately afterwards, don't get it twisted.
            ....When the apostle of Allah conquered Khaibar and he had peace of mind, Zaynab Bint al-Harith the brother of Marhab, who was the spouse of Sallam Ibn Mishkam, inquired, "Which part of the goat is liked by Muhammad?"  They said, "The foreleg."  Then she slaughtered one from her goats and roasted it (the meat).  Then she wanted a poison which could not fail. ....  The apostle of Allah took the foreleg, a piece of which he put into his mouth.  Bishr took another bone and put it into his mouth.  When the apostle of Allah ate one morsel of it Bishr ate his and other people also ate from it.  Then the apostle of Allah said, "Hold back your hands! because this foreleg; ...informed me that it is poisoned.  Thereupon Bishr said, "By Him who has made you great!  I discovered it from the morsel I took.  Nothing prevented me from emitting it out, but the idea that I did not like to make your food unrelishing.  When you had eaten what was in your mouth I did not like to save my life after yours, and I also thought you would not have eaten it if there was something wrong.
            Bishr did not rise form his seat but his color changed to that of "taylsan" (a green cloth)..........The apostle of Allah sent for Zaynab and said to her, "What induced you to do what you have done?"  She replied, "You have done to my people what you have done.  You have killed my father, my uncle and my husband, so I said to myself, "If you are a prophet, the foreleg will inform you; and others have said, "If you are a king we will get rid of you.""......
            The apostle of Allah lived after this three years till in consequence of his pain he passed away.  During his illness he used to say, "I did not cease to find the effect of the (poisoned) morsel, I took at Khaibar and I suffered several times (from its effect) but now I feel the hour has come of the cutting of my jugular vein."



    Sa'id Ibn Muhammad al-Thaqafl informed us on the authority of Muhammad Ibn 'Amr, he on the authority of Abu Salamah; he said:
    The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, did not eat anything given in sadaqah (charity) but he ate out of things given as presents. A Jewess presented to him a fried goat. The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, and his Companions ate out of it. It said: There is poison in me. Thereupon he said to his Companions: Hold back your hands; verily it has informed me that it has poison. He (Abu Salamah) said: They held back their hands. He (Abu Salamah) said: Bishr Ibn al-Bara died. The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, sent for her Jewess and said: What induced thee, to do what thou hadst done? [P. 114) She said: I wanted to know if thou art a Prophet because in that case it would not harm thee; and if thou wert a king, I would have relieved the people of thee. He (Abu Salamah) said: He passed an order, and she was killed.
Ibn Sa'd

His m8 fucking turned green and died and he himself was continually afflicted for 3 years with the effects of the poison

I think the conusion is due not having fully understood that the Holy Prophet Sallallahu Alaihe Wa Sallam was a complete human being and as a human being he was subject to same anatomy rules as any other human being is. He was not a super human being.

"The promise of Allah that He will protect His Messenger stood true and it primarily applied to the plans of any disbeliever to assasinate the Holy Prophet Sallallahu Alaihe Wa Sallam. Allah did not allow anyone to assasinate the Holy Prophet.
Having the affect of poison in his body until his death is not against the promise of Allah to protect him. He left from this world at the predetermined time. If he had dies immediately due to the affect of poison then it would have broken the promise of Allah.
And Allah knows best.
Mufti Ikram ul Haq"

It stuns me how people could honestly know this little about the largest religion on the planet or even make up retarded shit on wikipedia like that
I'm convinced, Westerners need to be taught about Islam for maximum cultural enrichment to abolish their decadent ignorance with the most halal information

[TD1]

Can we at least learn and continue to eat pork?

[Bohandas]

After doing some research, he died three years after the supposed poisoning.

Do more research m8

The proponents of him dying from the poison say that it took three years to kill him (and that god was protecting him until he completed his mission), but it seems far more likely that he simply died of unrelated causes three years later.

""No." I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of Allah's Apostle."
U N R E L A T E D   C A U S E S

So yeah, he didn't die immediately after the poisoning like you said he did.

No I said his m8 died immediately afterwards, don't get it twisted.
            ....When the apostle of Allah conquered Khaibar and he had peace of mind, Zaynab Bint al-Harith the brother of Marhab, who was the spouse of Sallam Ibn Mishkam, inquired, "Which part of the goat is liked by Muhammad?"  They said, "The foreleg."  Then she slaughtered one from her goats and roasted it (the meat).  Then she wanted a poison which could not fail. ....  The apostle of Allah took the foreleg, a piece of which he put into his mouth.  Bishr took another bone and put it into his mouth.  When the apostle of Allah ate one morsel of it Bishr ate his and other people also ate from it.  Then the apostle of Allah said, "Hold back your hands! because this foreleg; ...informed me that it is poisoned.  Thereupon Bishr said, "By Him who has made you great!  I discovered it from the morsel I took.  Nothing prevented me from emitting it out, but the idea that I did not like to make your food unrelishing.  When you had eaten what was in your mouth I did not like to save my life after yours, and I also thought you would not have eaten it if there was something wrong.
            Bishr did not rise form his seat but his color changed to that of "taylsan" (a green cloth)..........The apostle of Allah sent for Zaynab and said to her, "What induced you to do what you have done?"  She replied, "You have done to my people what you have done.  You have killed my father, my uncle and my husband, so I said to myself, "If you are a prophet, the foreleg will inform you; and others have said, "If you are a king we will get rid of you.""......
            The apostle of Allah lived after this three years till in consequence of his pain he passed away.  During his illness he used to say, "I did not cease to find the effect of the (poisoned) morsel, I took at Khaibar and I suffered several times (from its effect) but now I feel the hour has come of the cutting of my jugular vein."



    Sa'id Ibn Muhammad al-Thaqafl informed us on the authority of Muhammad Ibn 'Amr, he on the authority of Abu Salamah; he said:
    The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, did not eat anything given in sadaqah (charity) but he ate out of things given as presents. A Jewess presented to him a fried goat. The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, and his Companions ate out of it. It said: There is poison in me. Thereupon he said to his Companions: Hold back your hands; verily it has informed me that it has poison. He (Abu Salamah) said: They held back their hands. He (Abu Salamah) said: Bishr Ibn al-Bara died. The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, sent for her Jewess and said: What induced thee, to do what thou hadst done? [P. 114) She said: I wanted to know if thou art a Prophet because in that case it would not harm thee; and if thou wert a king, I would have relieved the people of thee. He (Abu Salamah) said: He passed an order, and she was killed.
Ibn Sa'd

His m8 fucking turned green and died and he himself was continually afflicted for 3 years with the effects of the poison

I think the conusion is due not having fully understood that the Holy Prophet Sallallahu Alaihe Wa Sallam was a complete human being and as a human being he was subject to same anatomy rules as any other human being is. He was not a super human being.

No, I think it's that they understand that he is, and that poison doesn't work like that. here are also poisons that cause permanent damage to one's health, but they can't suddenly cause more damage years after having left your system. Yes, there are poisons that stay in your system, mercury comes to mind, but to my knowledge they generally don't just suddenly up and kill you three years later after years of the symptoms remaining stable and no additional poison being ingested; the issue with mercury is that generally one is exposed to it repetedly and it builds up in increasing quantities.

The story only makes sense if he had already suffered fatal damage and completed the last three years as some sort of undead creature or revenant until the blessing of the lord left him.

[TD1]

Or if it was fictional, or if they were mistaken about it being poison.

[Bohandas]

Or if it was fictional, or if they were mistaken about it being poison.

That was my implication

[TD1]

My apologies. In this thread, allegiance can change in the blink of the eye.

[Rolepgeek]

My apologies. In this thread, allegiance can change in the blink of the eye.

That makes me uncomfortable.

This should not be about "allegiance"s. This should be about Truth. It should not be about sides or tribes or affiliations. This is a discussion thread, not an argument or a verbal war or even technically a debate.

We should not be attempting to score points, or look the smartest, or whatever, which we're probably all doing subconsciously at minimum. We should be trying to learn, and to share information.

[Vilanat]

Ha, the "blame the Jew" game again. Can't say i'm too surprised.

[Rolan7]

My apologies. In this thread, allegiance can change in the blink of the eye.

I really like this, actually.  I wish I was better at it.  I think, honestly, my favorite of my own posts here have been where I was discussing the Bible "in-universe", so to say.  Like discussing Norse mythology - With respect, fun, and irresponsible theorycrafting.  When I express my *fear* of Abrahamic religions, I just get depressed and more scared.

@Rolepgeek
Of course we do *have* allegiances, but I agree that we should be able to discuss things without necessarily involving said allegiances.
I don't really expect anyone to switch sides, but I have learned an awful lot.  And I think I've pointed out things that others missed, too.

I do have to disagree though, my main goal is to look smartest at all times
Well, not so much recently.

Ha, the "blame the Jew" game again. Can't say i'm too surprised.

Wait what, is this about the poison goat?  I skimmed those posts but I don't think the Jew thing was emphasized here...