Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Orange Wizard]

I don't think Jesus was born from a virgin. Can any (other?*) Christians explain why they say that as well as why it matters?

Jesus being the Son of God would kind of lose meaning if his biological father were Joseph and not God.

[Frumple]

Not... really? Don't think it'd make much of a difference. Wasn't the squishy bits that makes the relationship what it's said to be, yeah?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Because dirty, dirty sin is transferred through blood, and if Mary were not made sinless then Jesus would not be either. Putting out for god is purifying, putting out for your husband is dirty.

This is not exactly the source of the sexism that permeates Christianity, but it's certainly a good example of it.

[Orange Wizard]

Not... really? Don't think it'd make much of a difference. Wasn't the squishy bits that makes the relationship what it's said to be, yeah?

Yeah, I guess. The point is a virgin birth, which is pretty miraculous, unless you get into artificial sciency stuff that didn't exist at the time.
Whether or not it had to be a virgin birth is a moot point, that's just the way the story goes. It's like belabouring the point of anything in the Bible, really. John the Baptist didn't have to be called John, but he was; Saul didn't have to become king of Israel, but he did, and so on.

Obviously historicity is another matter entirely; let's not get into that.

...

Because dirty, dirty sin is transferred through blood, and if Mary were not made sinless then Jesus would not be either. Putting out for god is purifying, putting out for your husband is dirty.

This is not exactly the source of the sexism that permeates Christianity, but it's certainly a good example of it.

There's so much wrong here I just can't even

[origamiscienceguy]

I don't think Jesus was born from a virgin. Can any (other?*) Christians explain why they say that as well as why it matters?

*I'm not really any label. Family's Catholic, but I doubt many central tenets, and no other religion I've seen seems to fit me. Pretty much just agnostic at times, but there might be a "force of good" in the world (no miracles, etc.).

It was prophesised in Isaiah that the Savior would be born of a virgin (among countless other prophecies) as a clear sign of who the savior was rather than a false prophet.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

And the Jesus was definitely not born from Joseph because of how he reacted when he learned she was pregnant:

Mathew 1:19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Because dirty, dirty sin is transferred through blood, and if Mary were not made sinless then Jesus would not be either. Putting out for god is purifying, putting out for your husband is dirty.

This is not exactly the source of the sexism that permeates Christianity, but it's certainly a good example of it.

There's so much wrong here I just can't even

Let me just go ahead and put the same thing more charitably, to illustrate my point.

It is vital to the Word of God and the salvation of mankind through Christ that Mary be a virgin, for only through the immaculate conception and virgin birth may Christ claim victory over Original/Ancestral Sin by breaking the inheritance of tainted blood, mother to child, since the days of Adam. The virginity of Mary must be so that Christ will become incarnate through a sinless vessel. Lacking this, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross to appease the wrath of God will be in vain, and the sins of mankind will endure into eternal torment.

I have basically said the same thing in both posts, I'm just actually condemning it. And remember, it is at least Catholic doctrine that Mary was sinless, without believing it one is in heresy against the appointee of God on Earth.

[origamiscienceguy]

Because dirty, dirty sin is transferred through blood, and if Mary were not made sinless then Jesus would not be either. Putting out for god is purifying, putting out for your husband is dirty.

This is not exactly the source of the sexism that permeates Christianity, but it's certainly a good example of it.

There's so much wrong here I just can't even

Let me just go ahead and put the same thing more charitably, to illustrate my point.

It is vital to the Word of God and the salvation of mankind through Christ that Mary be a virgin, for only through the immaculate conception and virgin birth may Christ claim victory over Original/Ancestral Sin by breaking the inheritance of tainted blood, mother to child, since the days of Adam. The virginity of Mary must be so that Christ will become incarnate through a sinless vessel. Lacking this, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross to appease the wrath of God will be in vain, and the sins of mankind will endure into eternal torment.

I have basically said the same thing in both posts, I'm just actually condemning it. And remember, it is at least Catholic doctrine that Mary was sinless, without believing it one is in heresy against the appointee of God on Earth.

Do you have any scripture to back that up? Because I have quite a bit that disprove the part about Mary being sinless.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Do you have any scripture to back that up? Because I have quite a bit that disprove the part about Mary being sinless.

This is a fairly comprehensive list as to why, from both scripture and sacred tradition.

Of course, this is the Catholic position. There are certainly Christian groups which reject sinless Mary, but some of them are even newer than the RCC's declaration.

[origamiscienceguy]

That still doesn't have any scripture.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The section on "Proof from Scripture" does not impress you? Consider that the doctrine of the Trinity, which is central to the Nicene Creed and considered by almost all Christians to be necessary to be a Christian, isn't in scripture either. If that can be inferred, surely other things can.

[origamiscienceguy]

The section on "Proof from Scripture" does not impress you? Consider that the doctrine of the Trinity, which is central to the Nicene Creed and considered by almost all Christians to be necessary to be a Christian, isn't in scripture either. If that can be inferred, surely other things can.

Correct. This: "No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture" from the scripture section does not impres me. The thing about the trinity is not necessary for salvation, but believing that it is possible to live a life without sin definitely does matter.

[Orange Wizard]

Ooh, a liturgy game.

The Belgic Confession, relevant articles 14 through 20.
The Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 14 through 16 (Q&A 35 through 43).

Admittedly these aren't 100% relevant, but they address the general topic and provide dozens of relevant Scripture passages.

...

There are certainly Christian groups which reject sinless Mary

Yeah, most of them.

...

The section on "Proof from Scripture" does not impress you? Consider that the doctrine of the Trinity, which is central to the Nicene Creed and considered by almost all Christians to be necessary to be a Christian, isn't in scripture either. If that can be inferred, surely other things can.

Correct. This: "No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture" from the scripture section does not impres me. The thing about the trinity is not necessary for salvation, but believing that it is possible to live a life without sin definitely does matter.

Their proof was basically "it could be interpreted this way if you twist the words a little and ignore the other, more obvious interpretations". Not particularly impressive.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

There are certainly Christian groups which reject sinless Mary

Yeah, most of them.

With the minor exemption of the single largest, most wealthy, most influential one in the world, of course.

[origamiscienceguy]

There are certainly Christian groups which reject sinless Mary

Yeah, most of them.

With the minor exemption of the single largest, most wealthy, most influential one in the world, of course.

The bible also rejects it.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall shot of the glory of god.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

Romans 3:10 As it is written: there is no one righteous, not even one.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Clearly hyperbole, unless you're a Monophysite and deny the humanity of Jesus.