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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Bohandas]

Hebrews 11:19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

If that's the closest God can do at raising the dead I am not impressed. Any random dictator or mafia kingpin can do that.

[Antioch]

I answered atheist, though it is more a description of what I do NOT believe than what I do.

If asked for my convictions I would say that I am a freethinker.

A quote by William Kingdon Clifford is often cited as a short summary of freethought: "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freethought

How do you guys identify with the principles of freethought?

[penguinofhonor]

I think he was responding to orgasmicscienceguy actually.

[TD1]

So I was watching a friend play binding of Issac on the DS. And he said that it was based off of a story of Abraham and Issac in the bible. If the game is anything close to the real story, than Abraham is a terrible father. Is the game leaving out important details or something?

The game does leave out several details that make the story make more sense. (i've only really seen the intro cutscene, but I think that is what you are referring to) When taken out of context, Abraham looks like a terrible father, but you have to look at the entire story.

God promised Abraham that he would be the father of a great many people. And that they would come through Issac.
Genesis 15:5 He [God] took him [Abram] outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars--if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

Genesis 17:5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”

Abraham had faith that God would keep his promise to have many descendants through Issac. Which could obviously not happen if Issac was dead. So when God commanded Abraham to: "Take your son, your only son, Issac, whom you love, and...Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering.." Abraham came to the conclusion that God would Raise Issac back from the dead.

Hebrews 11:19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

So Abraham was going to go through with the sacrifice because he believed that God would raise him back from the dead. Instead, God gave a Ram to be sacrificed instead. You are probably asking why God did this if he already knew what was going to happen. The reason is that God was pointing to another event where someone would give his son, his only son, whom he loved. Jesus.

Why would it need to be through Isaac? Was Abraham sterile, that he couldn't have other children/wives/dalliances?

[origamiscienceguy]

Hebrews 11:19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.

If that's the closest God can do at raising the dead I am not impressed. Any random dictator or mafia kingpin can do that.

It's not the closest God can do. This is what Abraham was thinking and why he was confident enough in God to sacrifice his son.

[TD1]

If you could answer my question, I'd appreciate it. I'd like to know why it's specifically Isaac that Abraham's children must come from. Is there a relevant verse?

[Helgoland]

I was wondering that as well, actually.

[origamiscienceguy]

I was wondering that as well, actually.

If you could answer my question, I'd appreciate it. I'd like to know why it's specifically Isaac that Abraham's children must come from. Is there a relevant verse?

When God made the covenant with Abraham, Abraham asked God, "O Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless...You have given me no children so a servant in my household will be my heir. Then the word of the Lord came to him: "...A son coming from your body will be your heir." (Genesis 15:2-3)

Later, after Ismael was born, God cam again and said "I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers. (Genesis 17:2) Right after that, three men came and God spoke, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." So God's promise of an heir was for Issac, not Ishmael. Those were the only sons Abraham had so it really couldn't have been anybody else really. You have to remember that Sarah was like ninety-something by this time.

[TD1]

Why does the child have to be Sarah's?

16 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian slave named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, “The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her.”

Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.

When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5 Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my slave in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the Lord judge between you and me.”

6 “Your slave is in your hands,” Abram said. “Do with her whatever you think best.” Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.

7 The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8 And he said, “Hagar, slave of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?”

“I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered.

9 Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”

11 The angel of the Lord also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
    and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,[a]
    for the Lord has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
    toward all his brothers.”

[Frumple]

... so abra(ha)m is... apparently a rapist and willing to stand aside while his wife tries to murder the pregnant mother of his bastard child. That. That's great, I guess. I think I can see why I forgot details of that particular story.

Are we actually trying to defend this guy's character or something? Because I'm not exactly seeing arguments to the positive. Dude was a slave owner (or at least married to one, and condoning the abuse and effective murder of slaves, which is at least as bad), a rapist, and willing to throw his child's mother out into the goddamn desert, apparently to die. Whether the dude actually intended to kill another kid is kinda' irrelevant at that point. Pretty much hit full bastard before that. He already explicitly let his wife try to kill the first one.

Honestly, looking at that, it seems a lot more likely to me the guy did intend to kill isaac. Fellow pretty obviously does not give a single solitary shit about his kids.

[That Wolf]

Do people still believe in the bibles?
Wow.

I beleive in a deity but I dont praise it.
All gods comments in the scripture sounds like satan.
"Seeing me will kill you, so hide in this rock and I will pass over you and you will feel it"
"Kill this thing for me... dont worry its an animal, it has no soul"
"Im only strong if you believe"
Just look at Israel and you will see where religious zealots take us.

Oh yeah the reason Abram got tricked by god was because he didnt count the stars, mainly because of his vision problems

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

bible god seems like a dick

[Graknorke]

...could you count all the stars in the sky? It's going to be couple thousand if there's no light pollution and the weather's clear.

[That Wolf]

If god approached me and placed a geas on me and it didnt involve anything beyond my morals?

yes I would, I would obey.
Seeing as god has never approached me or bothered me I will continue to live as I do.

[TD1]

Yea, Abraham was a real pig from the perspective of those in our society. Note, also, that God turns the girl back to her slavery, and identifies her as "slave," despite essentially returning her to cruelty. This, again, is the expectation of the time. Unless you think that the Abrahamic society was somehow the "right" society, he is an utter and complete ass, and arguably so is God.

[origamiscienceguy]

... so abra(ha)m is... apparently a rapist and willing to stand aside while his wife tries to murder the pregnant mother of his bastard child. That. That's great, I guess. I think I can see why I forgot details of that particular story.

Are we actually trying to defend this guy's character or something? Because I'm not exactly seeing arguments to the positive. Dude was a slave owner (or at least married to one, and condoning the abuse and effective murder of slaves, which is at least as bad), a rapist, and willing to throw his child's mother out into the goddamn desert, apparently to die. Whether the dude actually intended to kill another kid is kinda' irrelevant at that point. Pretty much hit full bastard before that. He already explicitly let his wife try to kill the first one.

Honestly, looking at that, it seems a lot more likely to me the guy did intend to kill isaac. Fellow pretty obviously does not give a single solitary shit about his kids.

Where does it say he was a rapist? Back then it was not uncommon for men to have multiple wives.
[16:3] So, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her slave-girl, and gave her to her husband Abram as a wife.
Where dies it say Sarah tried to kill Hagar?
Slaves were not anything like what happened in America before the civil war. They were more comparable to servants. They were not bought or sold, rather, they often gave themselves or their children into servitude so they could eat. The masters were not (usually) cruel or inhumane. The slaves ate and slept better than they would by themselves.

Yes, Abraham messed up when he took Hagar, but everybody messes up. That is why we need a Savior. However, Abraham loved Issac very much and being willing to sacrifice him must have taken more faith than I can imagine.

Yea, Abraham was a real pig from the perspective of those in our society. Note, also, that God turns the girl back to her slavery, and identifies her as "slave," despite essentially returning her to cruelty. This, again, is the expectation of the time. Unless you think that the Abrahamic society was somehow the "right" society, he is an utter and complete ass, and arguably so is God.

I can't find this, could you tell me where it is in the Bible? Also, see the slavery thing above.

Do people still believe in the bibles?
Wow.

I beleive in a deity but I dont praise it.
All gods comments in the scripture sounds like satan.
"Seeing me will kill you, so hide in this rock and I will pass over you and you will feel it"
"Kill this thing for me... dont worry its an animal, it has no soul"
"Im only strong if you believe"
Just look at Israel and you will see where religious zealots take us.

Oh yeah the reason Abram got tricked by god was because he didnt count the stars, mainly because of his vision problems

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

bible god seems like a dick

So do you think that Jesus was the Devil as well? If so, why is the Devil doing all of this because there obviously isn't a good god in this case. If not, then WHY would Satan make the entire Old Testament pointing towards the only thing that could ruin him?


Also, I did make a mistake. Abraham had more sons than Issac and Ishmael I just didn't find it in my first responses.
"Now Abraham took another wife, whose name was Keturah. 2And she bore to him Zimran and Jokshan and Medan and Midian and Ishbak and Shuah," (Genesis 25:1-2)
This still does not change the fact that Issac was the son promised by God.