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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Loud Whispers]

Lol I'm fedora tier and even I find that too edgy

Rolan I don't think Jesus was really concerned with privacy when he was nailed to a stick for some cheeky Roman-Judaean bants

[Rolan7]

Did I say something about privacy?
Anyway sorry about the edginess, discussion with my brother tends to bring out stronger opinions from me.  We get intense.

Ironically he's a more sure atheist than I am, but sees modern religion as somewhat less of a threat than I do.  Whereas I like to think that faeries are based on real phenomena, and kinda think that objects have spiritual essence, and I'm absolutely afraid of organized religion.

I see it as a perversion of a useful instinct towards spirituality.  I'm also a lot more bi, though, so it's hard to have much sympathy for the watered-down creeds which are so commonly used as an excuse to hate and, until recently, disenfranchise me.

[Helgoland]

Ironically he's a more sure atheist than I am, but sees modern religion as somewhat less of a threat than I do.  Whereas I like to think that faeries are based on real phenomena, and kinda think that objects have spiritual essence, and I'm absolutely afraid of organized religion.

The only thing more dangerous than organized religion is unorganized religion. Sure, the Church does some bad shit, but it's nothing compared to the evangelical crazies in the US. Or, to take a more historical example, compare the Puritans and the Anglican High Church. Or, to take an even more historical example: The Church originally was one of the bulwarks against witch hunts...

[Orange Wizard]

Modern religion is a threat? Lolwut? Have you been to a modern church? It's the modern ones that're all about peace and love and waving your hands in the air. An entire service consists of a band playing crappy Christian rock and some guy harping on about Jesus' infinite love.

It's the old traditional churches that are actually kinda scary. We're the ones who say God doesn't actually do that much loving, comparatively speaking, and bad things happen because he wants them to.
Of course, there aren't very many of us left, which means the real terror (and thing thing you're actually complaining about) is...

American conservatism! The thing that's only incidentally religious, and consists mainly of old people and noisy idiots in positions of power. Which is a problem on both ends of your one-dimensional political spectrum, not just the right.

E: Wow, that sounds really antagonistic. You should probably picture my voice as deadpan and uninterested.

[origamiscienceguy]

Rolan, you are leaving out several parts of Jesus' teachings and his life in your description of Jesus.

[Rolan7]

Well, the church I was brought up in was Southern Baptist...
I don't honestly know how it is in other churches, particularly the less evangelical ones.

@Helgoland, I see what you mean and I think it's partly what I was saying.  Christians who have lost the imposed order of the Catholic Church have all the adaptability of being free, while also having (or being open to) the prejudices so common in the faith.  It's a killer combo.

Basic primal spirituality, formed on an individual basis, doesn't have those prejudices.  It could be as bad as the individual's own prejudices, but it's not so systematic and social.  IE, you don't have regular meetings with a bunch of other people who reaffirm those prejudices and form a major part of one's social life.

Rolan, you are leaving out several parts of Jesus' teachings and his life in your description of Jesus.

I'm correctly describing his core teachings, in my opinion.  Please, feel free to mention how he healed some beggars.  Or better yet, explain how he wasn't inducing guilt through an absolutely meaningless sacrifice, and threatening us with the NEW concept of eternal damnation.

[redwallzyl]

you don't have regular meetings with a bunch of other people who reaffirm those prejudices

that's basically the internet

[Frumple]

I think you mean socialization since ever. People don't exactly need religion to regularly get together and reaffirm their shared beliefs.

[origamiscienceguy]

Maybe because he was exactly who he said he was? The son of God? It's just a possibility.

(That is what I believe anyways.)

[Rolan7]

you don't have regular meetings with a bunch of other people who reaffirm those prejudices

that's basically the internet

Only if you absurdly misuse it
The internet is probably the single greatest tool for getting exposed to alternate viewpoints, ever.  So far!

Maybe because he was exactly who he said he was? The son of God? It's just a possibility.

(That is what I believe anyways.)

Okay going to assume you're talking to me, and thought that refuted anything I said...
yeah, assuming the Bible is metaphorically true...
He's the son of God.  He "died", but came back to life no worse for wear.  He's also literally God, at the same time, paradoxically.
So he's God, who died meaninglessly, and brought a new message of everlasting suffering for nonbelievers.

So conveniently he boosted the Jewish faith by allowing, even morally forcing people to believe or be damned.

Damnation for non-belief was introduced by your supposed "prince of peace".  It makes perfect sense from the perspective of an infectious dogma.  A mutation of an existing, race-centric deity which allowed the faith to cover the globe.

[That Wolf]

Keep questioning reality.
God us not what you think, its not static

But sure keep your ancient science text that doesnt have any relevance to modern life.
Its key points are common sense so it has nothing to offer.
While hindi texts have so many PROVEN methods of enlightenment.
Stop wasting your time

[Orange Wizard]

infectious dogma

You're kinda exaggerating/misrepresenting things here. Just a little bit.

...

keep your ancient science text

Wait, did you just call the Bible science?

I, uh, heh. Heheheh.

Also:

While hindi texts have so many PROVEN methods of enlightenment.

While christian texts have so many PROVEN methods of enlightenment.

While zoroastrian texts have so many PROVEN methods of enlightenment.

While islamic texts have so many PROVEN methods of enlightenment.

While norse texts have so many PROVEN methods of enlightenment.

[origamiscienceguy]

So he's God, who died meaninglessly, and brought a new message of everlasting suffering for nonbelievers.

So conveniently he boosted the Jewish faith by allowing, even morally forcing people to believe or be damned.

Damnation for non-belief was introduced by your supposed "prince of peace".  It makes perfect sense from the perspective of an infectious dogma.  A mutation of an existing, race-centric deity which allowed the faith to cover the globe.

The way you see Jesus' death is different from the way every christian I know see it. We see it as a sacrifice to allow us a way into heaven. If you read the Disciples accounts and Paul's teaching, you do not get any hints towards the monster you are making Jesus seem like. Why would most of the Disciples also willingly decide to die terrible deaths for a person who only promised suffering? Why would they spread the news? They describe the news of Jesus as a wonderful thing.

Also, what do you mean race-centric?

[Telgin]

One could ask the question of why God thought it was necessary to sacrifice His son anyway, since He could just make the new rules take effect.  So it all comes down to the question of why He had a son at all, or why He does anything he does really, I guess.

Anyway, the argument was that if Jesus and the new testament never came around, then the concept of going to heaven or Hell for humans never would have either.  Before that, you just died, or if you were one of a very few exceptional people you got called up to heaven.  There was no eternal suffering for doing the wrong thing: you just died.  With the new testament, you suffer forever if you do something wrong.

As for why the disciples didn't see it that way... well, they were on His good side I guess, so they didn't see it as a problem.

It's the old traditional churches that are actually kinda scary. We're the ones who say God doesn't actually do that much loving, comparatively speaking, and bad things happen because he wants them to.

Oh, yes.  The church I still go to (mostly unwillingly) is of this variety.  God kills babies to keep them away from abusive parents, for example.  Oh, and the problems Joe Biden has had with his family's illnesses and such?  Yeah, he shouldn't have been a liberal or that probably wouldn't have happened.  Also, the Pope is going to bring about the new world order and make us all worship Islam, and gay people are stealing babies from straight couples.  There's also murmurings of FEMA camps out in Texas that Obama is going to send people to, and 30,000 guillotines being bought by the government to behead dissenters.

I wish I was making that up.  I'll also stop before I derail the thread on that, since I know that's not representative of Christians as a whole.  It's just amusing.

[Reelya]

<snip> I wish I was making that up.  I'll also stop before I derail the thread on that, since I know that's not representative of Christians as a whole.  It's just amusing.

A long time ago, I had an argument with a room full of religious folks once who thought nuclear weapons didn't exist and that they were all part of a global conspiracy. Again, not representative of anything except that group of people.

EDIT ... Not really related but I was just browsing the relevant websites and some claim that nuclear power doesn't even exist.