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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Adragis]

What religion isn't for the £££? The Christian church wouldn't have survived if not for its avarice. Indeed, commercialism is still a large part of Catholicism. When I was young, there was a Catholic family we knew who wouldn't send their child to a Protestant primary school (the closest one available, with good standards) because they'd have to pay the church quite a large amount to pray for his soul.

Buddhism? Rastafarianism? I'd like to know how some of the anti-materialistic religions (heck, Christianity's meant to be at least somewhat anti-materialistic and look at the sterling example we've managed to set, what with all these televangelists and such) are in it for the bucks.

[Rolan7]

I'd appreciate it if people could be a little careful about the religion thing. The number of unbased statements and things that are just plain wrong that get said is incredible.

I agree with this 100%!  Faith is literally belief in unbased statements, and often that leads to just plain wrong (yet very fiercely held) convictions.  It's in-credible.

[UXLZ]

Well, to be fair the things people usually hold faith in aren't demonstrably wrong, often hinging on the pink-yet-invisible diamond farting trans-dimensional unicorn hiding under your bed fallacy.

[Rolan7]

But they have repeatedly drawn conclusions based on that faith, and those conclusions have repeatedly turned out to be wrong.  Earth being the center of creation is the typical example, but it's not just science.  Anti-semitism, slavery, and holy wars were all supported by Christian faith.  Now, most Christians claim that those were misinterpretations, and their faith shouldn't be held responsible.  But it's very consistently misinterpreted.

[Arx]

slavery, and holy wars were all supported by Christian faith.

Huh? Can I get chapter and verse on those? Christian faith, for preference, so something based off what Jesus said.

I had the slavery argument with smeeprocket quite thoroughly over PMs while between religion threads. We eventually agreed that the Bible doesn't support slavery (certainly the New Testament doesn't) but does contain structures to ensure fair treatment of slaves should not keeping slaves be impractical for whatever reason.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Arx]

I'unno, when keeping slaves is the norm and being Christian is an offense worth being crucified over? It's cowardly, though.

That doesn't change the fact that the Bible doesn't support slavery.

[Rolan7]

So of course the Israelites took slaves like *crazy*, but apologists seem to agree that nothing God's People did should be considered a model for behavior.  But slavery is particularly well supported by the New Testament:

1 Peter 2:18

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

1 Timothy 6:1

Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

Ephesians 6:5

Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ.

*As unto Christ*.  And for this particular issue, the Bible doesn't say both things and let people choose which to follow.  It doesn't condemn slavery anywhere.

Holy wars are much more complicated.  But the belief in hell for nonbelievers, along with (Peter?) demanding that Christians spread the faith, provided plenty of justification.  Less justified than slavery, but clearly enough.

[Arx]

It doesn't condemn slavery anywhere.

Do you then consider taking someone as property and stripping them of their rights to be loving them as much as you can?

Holy wars are much more complicated.  But the belief in hell for nonbelievers, along with (Peter?) demanding that Christians spread the faith, provided plenty of justification.  Less justified than slavery, but clearly enough.

This really, honestly, baffles me. Are you saying that because the Bible says non-believers will perish in Hell, it's okay to send those non-believers to Hell sooner, depriving them of their chance to repent, in order to convert other non-believers? Because that's what it seems like you're saying, but that doesn't make any sense to me from a Biblical standpoint.

[Rolan7]

It doesn't condemn slavery anywhere.

Do you then consider taking someone as property and stripping them of their rights to be loving them as much as you can?

No, though many slave owners did.
The fact that the Bible says to "love" people doesn't change the rest of what it says.  Slaves should obey their masters, even the harsh ones.  And as you pointed out, they should "love" their masters.  If they're wronged, they should "turn the other cheek" rather than resisting.

I didn't come up with this stuff, it was a reasonable interpretation of what the Bible actually says.

Holy wars are much more complicated.  But the belief in hell for nonbelievers, along with (Peter?) demanding that Christians spread the faith, provided plenty of justification.  Less justified than slavery, but clearly enough.

This really, honestly, baffles me. Are you saying that because the Bible says non-believers will perish in Hell, it's okay to send those non-believers to Hell sooner, depriving them of their chance to repent, in order to convert other non-believers? Because that's what it seems like you're saying, but that doesn't make any sense to me from a Biblical standpoint.

Yes, because you're saving future generations and anyone you can capture.  It's horrible that so many people are going to hell, but killing a few *now* does reduce the overall amount of damnation.

[TempAcc]

What religion isn't for the £££? The Christian church wouldn't have survived if not for its avarice. Indeed, commercialism is still a large part of Catholicism. When I was young, there was a Catholic family we knew who wouldn't send their child to a Protestant primary school (the closest one available, with good standards) because they'd have to pay the church quite a large amount to pray for his soul.

Buddhism? Rastafarianism? I'd like to know how some of the anti-materialistic religions (heck, Christianity's meant to be at least somewhat anti-materialistic and look at the sterling example we've managed to set, what with all these televangelists and such) are in it for the bucks.

Buddhism isn't exactly truly "anti materialistic" though, just look at tibet. During the theocratical regime, monks were (and still are) rich as hell and temples get nearly daily donations, and owned slaves, but of course, there isn't one united Buddhist doctrine, so some varieties may be less materialistic then others.
I dont know enough to say anything about rastafarianism other then what we know today as rastafarianism may not be exactly while Haile Selassie taught.

Both hermeticism and spiritism are very anti-materialistic. Hermeticism claims that man's true nature is spiritual, and the only way to return to it and thus gain real freedom is to give up on materialistic tendencies and seek knowledge. In fact, while Hermes does mention demons as things that exist, he says that the greatest enemy of a man is his own body, since it stops man from perceiving reality's true nature and achieving true freedom. He also says you should fast whenever possible and give alms to the poor.

Spiritism is very similar, altough it doenst claim that the body is evil, or that you should necessarily avoid material experiences, it just says that you should never value them above the spiritual part of life, and that your true life isn't here, incarnated, but only a small part in your soul's development, which you should use to become a better person and help others in any reasonable way possible to you.

Of course, this is mainly why these religions aren't that widespread :v

Its interesting how religions that claim reincarnation is a real thing tend to be anti materialistic in a way or another. This isn't true for all of them, though.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Arx]

No, though many slave owners did.
The fact that the Bible says to "love" people doesn't change the rest of what it says.  Slaves should obey their masters, even the harsh ones.  And as you pointed out, they should "love" their masters.  If they're wronged, they should "turn the other cheek" rather than resisting.

I didn't come up with this stuff, it was a reasonable interpretation of what the Bible actually says.

Ah. At this point, we hit the glorious point of 'it's a reasonable interpretation', and neither of us is able to conclusively prove the other wrong. I do, however, maintain that it is not Christian to have slaves. It's also not Christian to be a slave and hate your master; it's just that the latter is made explicit in the Bible because it's much harder and less obvious than for a master to be kind to their slaves.

Yes, because you're saving future generations and anyone you can capture.  It's horrible that so many people are going to hell, but killing a few *now* does reduce the overall amount of damnation.

I guess. I can't think of any cases of actual open warfare acting to convert people, though. I mean, the Crusades didn't really manage that except possibly by accident (Middle-Eastern technology and all that), and there aren't really many other instances of it. ISIS certainly doesn't make me want to convert to Islam, for example.

[Bohandas]

That doesn't change the fact that the Bible doesn't support slavery.

"you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you." -Leviticus 25:44

[Arx]

"you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you." -Leviticus 25:44

"A second is equally important [to the greatest commandment]: love your neighbour as yourself." - Matthew 22:39

"The second is like it: you shall love your neighbour as yourself." - Mark 12:31

"In everything, treat others as you would want them to treat you, for this sums up the law and the prophets." - Matthew 7:12