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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Helgoland]

The nation is not under anything!

Err...

[Rolan7]

Well yeah, the point of declaring independence was... independence   Being a sovereign nation and all that.

[Persus13]

Conflation of religious faiths with state nationalism is ALWAYS a bad thing.

Well, nationalism is a religion itself, especially in America.

That is WHY our nation (is supposed to) keeps religion and politics separate. (GOP and fundamentalism not withstanding. ahem.)

I'd definitely agree with you here in terms of institutions, but its kind of hard to separate religion and politics when it comes to people.

Speaking of which, does the "under God" line in the Pledge of Allegiance strike anybody else as mildly seditious? It disparages the authority of our government and the legitimacy of our democracy. The nation is not under anything!

Not really, its just another aspect of the American civil religion that says America can do no wrong, so its actually the opposite.

The nation is not under anything!

Err...

Something tells me Poe's Law is in effect here.

[Helgoland]

U-SA über alles, über alles in der Welt!

Not exactly Poe's law, but it was a very unfortunate way to say what's meant.

[Bohandas]

The nation is not under anything!

Err...

The UN and NATO are confederated systems (in the technical sense, not the racism sense), their member nations are not "under" them.

[Rolan7]

The nation is not under anything!

Err...

Something tells me Poe's Law is in effect here.

I can't speak for Bohandas, but I think it's a serious point.  The USA were founded on principles of liberty and religious freedom.  When neocons added "Under God" to the pledge to differentiate us from them godless commies, they betrayed both those principles.

[Bohandas]

The nation is not under anything!

Err...

Something tells me Poe's Law is in effect here.

I can't speak for Bohandas, but I think it's a serious point.  The USA were founded on principles of liberty and religious freedom.  When neocons added "Under God" to the pledge to differentiate us from them godless commies, they betrayed both those principles.

Exactly

[Persus13]

The nation is not under anything!

Err...

Something tells me Poe's Law is in effect here.

I can't speak for Bohandas, but I think it's a serious point.  The USA were founded on principles of liberty and religious freedom.  When neocons added "Under God" to the pledge to differentiate us from them godless commies, they betrayed both those principles.

I'm against the under God as you are, but for a different reason. American civil religion is a theory that the United States basically has a religion in all but name based around American exceptionalism. Considering how there are plenty of people on both sides of the political spectrum who seem to believe this or at least state America can do no wrong rhetoric as well as how American patriotism feels like a religion sometimes with how reverently the Founding Fathers are treated as well as the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, I think this theory is valid. Hence, the under God in the pledge is part of this civil religion and since this civil religion is part of America since the beggining, if you think that's contrary to liberty or religious freedom then those were betrayed at the beginning.

This is a 1967 essay by a Robert Bellah who came up with the current iteration of the theory.

[Bohandas]

The nation is not under anything!

Err...

Something tells me Poe's Law is in effect here.

I can't speak for Bohandas, but I think it's a serious point.  The USA were founded on principles of liberty and religious freedom.  When neocons added "Under God" to the pledge to differentiate us from them godless commies, they betrayed both those principles.

I'm against the under God as you are, but for a different reason. American civil religion is a theory that the United States basically has a religion in all but name based around American exceptionalism. Considering how there are plenty of people on both sides of the political spectrum who seem to believe this or at least state America can do no wrong rhetoric as well as how American patriotism feels like a religion sometimes with how reverently the Founding Fathers are treated as well as the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, I think this theory is valid. Hence, the under God in the pledge is part of this civil religion and since this civil religion is part of America since the beggining, if you think that's contrary to liberty or religious freedom then those were betrayed at the beginning.

That doesn't hold up because it's more or less unambiguous that the "God" referred to is the god of the major western faiths (Christianity/Judaism/Islam) and not one of the Founding Fathers or Abe Lincoln or the Constitution or the Atomic BOMB.

[Persus13]

The nation is not under anything!

Err...

Something tells me Poe's Law is in effect here.

I can't speak for Bohandas, but I think it's a serious point.  The USA were founded on principles of liberty and religious freedom.  When neocons added "Under God" to the pledge to differentiate us from them godless commies, they betrayed both those principles.

I'm against the under God as you are, but for a different reason. American civil religion is a theory that the United States basically has a religion in all but name based around American exceptionalism. Considering how there are plenty of people on both sides of the political spectrum who seem to believe this or at least state America can do no wrong rhetoric as well as how American patriotism feels like a religion sometimes with how reverently the Founding Fathers are treated as well as the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, I think this theory is valid. Hence, the under God in the pledge is part of this civil religion and since this civil religion is part of America since the beggining, if you think that's contrary to liberty or religious freedom then those were betrayed at the beginning.

That doesn't hold up because it's more or less unambiguous that the god referred to is the god of the western faiths and not one of the Founding Fathers or Abe Lincoln or the Atomic BOMB.

I never said that the referred to god was any of those things. The god is just an American god, otherwise I doubt Abraham Lincoln or Thomas Jefferson would reference him. And yes, of course there is Christian elements in the American civil religion (like monotheism), and some Christians incorporate the American civil religion into there faith by believing that America is essentially a new Israel that was endowed by God, taking of the Puritan beliefs, but its not an explicitly Christian god. There's a distinct lack of Christ for instance.

[Rolan7]

Lincoln may have been skeptical, but that doesn't mean he wasn't talking about the Christian God...  He was raised Baptist and often quoted from the Bible.  Almost all his constituents were Christian.  To say that he secretly meant some nebulous God of America is a massive leap.

American Exceptionalism rant:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Why do people act like America invented nationalism?  It's basically the opposite, we emphasize rights of states and individuals to an extraordinary degree.  The federal government is more a scapegoat than a God.  It's certainly no Motherland or Fatherland.

What we do have is pride in our process, IE patriotism.  Though that goes in and out of fashion as well.  It basically just means treasuring liberties.  Any other country is welcome to adopt the same liberties and be just as "exceptional".

[wierd]

I comprehend. I have had similar conceptions concerning "gestalt public entities" in the past.

I too am against American Exceptionalism, because the very notion goes against rational empiricism. Americans are humans. Like all other humans. They are neither better nor worse, fundamentally, than any other group of humans.

The "My Country: Love it or leave it" types are a cancer. Always have been.

[Rolan7]

Right, nationalism is a dangerous belief system.
American patriotism is practically the opposite of nationalism.  It involves examining the current administration critically and holding personal rights sacred.

Lots of idiots call themselves patriots when they're really just nationalistic...

[Loud Whispers]

They are neither better nor worse, fundamentally, than any other group of humans.

Empirical evidence points to 'fundamentally worse'

[wierd]

They are neither better nor worse, fundamentally, than any other group of humans.

Empirical evidence points to 'fundamentally worse'

Incorrect. They are just as bad as any other group, fundamentally. They simply have access to more resources, and are therefor more influential.

(You can find the antecedent of current Amerika(tm) in the former British Empire.)