Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Angle]

Eh. I agree with him on most of it, except that I have a massively different impression of his 'step 3'. At that point, I tend more towards thinking things like 'why am I even out shopping?' 'It would make no difference in the long run if I were to stab this cashier.' and 'In the long run, there's no reason I can't just walk out of here with the stuff now.'

Make no difference in the long run to who? I'd feel bad if I stabbed the cashier, and I bet you would too.  This is a common thing I see - people come to understand that the universe is vast and cold and doesn't care about them at all, and that in the end it will kill them and destroy everything they've ever loved, and they get all sad about it. But in my opinion, it doesn't really matter, or perhaps it even makes things more worth doing, more worth trying. To put it simply, life is like dwarf fortress - there's no win condition and lot's of ways to lose. But it's still worth playing. Losing is fun!

-snip-

Yeah, I definitely agree there - we should seek to integrate our various bits and get the best of both worlds.

Anyway, I'm super tired and kinda incoherent, so I'll try again in the morning. Good night everyone!

[Arx]

Eh. I agree with him on most of it, except that I have a massively different impression of his 'step 3'. At that point, I tend more towards thinking things like 'why am I even out shopping?' 'It would make no difference in the long run if I were to stab this cashier.' and 'In the long run, there's no reason I can't just walk out of here with the stuff now.'

Make no difference in the long run to who? I'd feel bad if I stabbed the cashier, and I bet you would too.

In the long run? Nothing matters to anything (except possibly God). The universe doesn't care, and when I'm thinking in terms of the universe, neither do I. I'm sufficiently well-grounded in reality that I don't stab anyone, because I'm academically aware that I would regret it later (also, because of religion), but in the long run, in the absence of God (hypothetically), it would make no difference.

[Rolan7]

I reached a point years ago where regret was a non-issue.  If I wanted to stab anyone, especially myself, I would have.  I eventually decided I didn't want to stab anybody else (and reserved judgement on myself).  Proper morality is internal, not external.  Granted, a lot of it comes from upbringing - but more of it comes from observing society, and deciding what you want your place to be.

[MonkeyHead]

To paraphrase Penn Jillette: I kill, steal and rape all I want. That amount is zero.

To many atheists, myself included, it is a terrifying notion that many theists honestly hold that they would be killing, raping and stealing if it were not for their god, or that the only reason they do not is to please their god in some way in order to be rewarded or to avoid punishment. One could argue that if that is the only thing keeping you on the "good track", you are not actually a "good person", at east in comparison to someone who does the right thing as they know it is the right thing to do independent of any supernatural "influence".

[Bohandas]

Going back to the afterlife discontinuity issue, it's worth pointing out that many Christian denominations believe in bodily resurrection that will occur after the second coming of Christ

[SirQuiamus]

BEHOLD, MORTALS! SPIRITUALITY!

What I missed at the time is that “atheist” isn’t something. It’s just “not something.” By declaring myself an atheist and calling it a day, I was basing my whole spiritual identity on what I wasn’t.

Duh.

The next article is a bit more problematic.

When the small-minded animal emotions are less in our face, the more advanced emotions of the Higher Being—love, compassion, humility, empathy, etc.—begin to light up.

As far as we can tell, non-human mammals are perfectly capable of all those "higher" emotions, or at least their non-linguistic analogues. Furthermore, if you think that spirituality is all about sublime and eternal non-things like Truth, your belief system is not all that different from any traditional religion.

[Angle]

In the long run? Nothing matters to anything (except possibly God). The universe doesn't care, and when I'm thinking in terms of the universe, neither do I. I'm sufficiently well-grounded in reality that I don't stab anyone, because I'm academically aware that I would regret it later (also, because of religion), but in the long run, in the absence of God (hypothetically), it would make no difference.

But remember, "mattering" is subjective. I still care about things, even once I've thought in terms of the universe. In fact, I find it extremely helpful for clearing out all the small minded pettiness and stupidity. For example, when I'm worried about things like petty slights or disagreements and such, thinking "In all the vast immensity of space and time, does this really matter to me? Mmmmmm... Nope." Is a great way to metaphorically clear your head. But some things, like for example, the simple pleasure of going for a walk on a sunny, rainy day, DO still matter to me. The universe may be vast and timeless, and my existence may be short and unnoticeable, but that walk in the sun and rain was still beautiful, no matter how big the universe, no matter how endless the timescale!

[Frumple]

Well, matter to you, yes. Matter to more or less anything else that's still going to be sticking around after a bit, no. Kinda' Arx's point, I think. Lot of people want to think things matter in some sort of genuine, substantiative sense -- something with a non-transient metaphysical weight. It's one of the huge draws to religion -- that message that what you do is going to make a difference in the long run, either for yourself (personal salvation) or others (helping them to the path of salvation).

All of the major ones have that, some kind of way that action can have consequence or result indefinitely, either through heaven/hell, escape from the cycle of reincarnation, or whathaveyou. That we're more than just dust waiting to spread back out, that that sun isn't going to dim and go out, that the earth that rain falls on won't become barren, empty, or just outright gone, that there's going to be something after that walk in the sun, and that said walk is going to have some sort of influence on it.

And we're not, it is, there isn't, and it won't. Lot of people really don't like that, and find "it matters to me" insufficient for them. They've got (at least) two scales of what matters, and one of them mostly can't be fulfilled without the divine.

[Angle]

Yeah, but it still seems silly to me. So what if everything turns to dust eventually? Life is still beautiful. If anything, it only gets more beautiful, knowing that it's so temporary.

[Frumple]

Beautiful, sure, but it's not the beauty folks are caring about.

E: Incidentally, if you start saying stuff about art being a bang, I'm going to throw rotten fruit at you. Just an fyi.

[Angle]

Folks are silly!

[Frumple]

*shrugs* I wouldn't call it silliness. Just a difference of aesthetic.

[Arx]

Yeah, but it still seems silly to me. So what if everything turns to dust eventually? Life is still beautiful. If anything, it only gets more beautiful, knowing that it's so temporary.

See, that's the difference. I don't think life is beautiful. I partly don't like that guy's whole ~Higher Being~ thing because if I clear away the terrible, mind-clouding vestiges of my baser nature I can see nothing to take joy in. Life is no more special than anything else. If I don't think about it (regress deep into the fog, according to that guy) then yes, there is beauty. But objectively, nothing is worth anything. Dust we are, and to dust we inevitably return.

My personal life philosophy is not particularly cheerful with religion excluded.

[TD1]

Saying nothing is worth anything is foolish. Perhaps nothing means anything, but that doesn't mean there is no worth. I value the sun, it warms and sustains me. A beetle values dung, it is warmed and sustained by it.

[Arx]

Subjectively, the sun has worth because it warms you, yes. Objectively, though, nothing about one self-sustaining system influencing another is inherently valuable. It's all just atoms.