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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[wierd]

Lucifer (satan) is a seraphim, yes.

the cherubim were the "watchers", discussed at length in the apochryphal book of enoch.

The "demons" of abrahamic religions are the "giant" offspring created by the fallen watchers getting it on with human females that they found sexy. (genesis chapt 2, and first part of enoch.) To make this "work", the watchers altered themselves. in doing so, they ceased being the perfect creations of god, and became corruptions that could not be redeemed. Lucifer was the architect of this, after convincing a good third of the angelic hosts to abandon god, god's creation plan for mankind, and do thier own thing instead. Lucifer was #2 on the totem pole, being the literal right hand man of God. (the other being Michael, who remained loyal during the attempted coup) The angels are not normally physical beings, and are instead "spirit beings." This is why alterations were necessary, and also why they could not be redeemed afterwards. Thier offspring, being a synthesis of fleshly bodies and spirit bodies, had no real place either in heaven or on earth, and "survived" after thier deaths as incorporiated spirit beings, but retaining fleshly appetites. Their fathers were banished (to what I swear sounds like a description of a big metallic asteroid), and imprisoned away from the earth until the end of days, before the time of judgement-- at that time, they will be judged along with what remains of thier children, and the wicked fallen of the human race.

Demons possess humans in order to sate these more carnal apetites/vices, and also out of spite; they hate humans, who are given every chance to succed, where they are/were denied even a single chance, and were doomed the moment they were concieved. These hybrid offspring are called "nephilim", or "fallen ones."


Yay religious studies. Yay.

[origamiscienceguy]

Lucifer (satan) is a seraphim, yes.

the cherubim were the "watchers", discussed at length in the apochryphal book of enoch.

The "demons" of abrahamic religions are the "giant" offspring created by the fallen watchers getting it on with human females that they found sexy. (genesis chapt 2, and first part of enoch.) To make this "work", the watchers altered themselves. in doing so, they ceased being the perfect creations of god, and became corruptions that could not be redeemed. Lucifer was the architect of this, after convincing a good third of the angelic hosts to abandon god, god's creation plan for mankind, and do thier own thing instead. Lucifer was #2 on the totem pole, being the literal right hand man of God. (the other being Michael, who remained loyal during the attempted coup) The angels are not normally physical beings, and are instead "spirit beings." This is why alterations were necessary, and also why they could not be redeemed afterwards. Thier offspring, being a synthesis of fleshly bodies and spirit bodies, had no real place either in heaven or on earth, and "survived" after thier deaths as incorporiated spirit beings, but retaining fleshly appetites. Their fathers were banished (to what I swear sounds like a description of a big metallic asteroid), and imprisoned away from the earth until the end of days, before the time of judgement-- at that time, they will be judged along with what remains of thier children, and the wicked fallen of the human race.

Demons possess humans in order to sate these more carnal apetites/vices, and also out of spite; they hate humans, who are given every chance to succed, where they are/were denied even a single chance, and were doomed the moment they were concieved. These hybrid offspring are called "nephilim", or "fallen ones."


Yay religious studies. Yay.

I don't mean to be a nit picker, but can you please cite bible verses that back up your argument?

[Orange Wizard]

He cited the Apocrypha, which isn't technically part of the Bible (although the Catholic church uses some bits of it IIRC), and the Bible doesn't really say much about demons other than that they're spiteful and angry because they got kicked out of heaven.

[wierd]

it is discussed at length in enoch. link above.

it is a part of the apochrypha. The only mentions of this event in cannon biblical texts are allusions to "the war in heaven", and the genesis chapt 2 reference about giants.

[Orange Wizard]

... it's not really an allusion, it straight-up states in Revelation "There was war in Heaven".

[Frumple]

... of course, that's revelation, which... might not have happened, yet. Right?

[wierd]

The scope of "time" in the book of revalation is "all of creation". What takes centuries or millenia to us, is just people talking in the metaphor of that book.

God works on a VASTLY different timetable.

The war in heaven happened shortly after the creation of man, and the tempting and fall of man was a part of that coup.  other extra-biblical source materials have lucifer being prideful of being a spirit being, and refusing to accept demotion after god introduces the then perfect adam to him. This led lucifer down his spiraling path of destruction and calamity that he drug the whole universe along with him on.

From what I am able to interpret, god created humans in a direct attempt to copy himself, and make "god lite". A kind of testbed platform so to speak. This pissed lucifer off to no end,  being the then closest thing to god in existence, and hating humanity from the very start.

This is why he is known as "the accuser", and "the father of lies", and so many other epithets. Prior to this, he was a proper upstanding angel, like any other.

[Frumple]

... according to extra-biblical sources, mostly, whereas all the references in the bible itself may not even be talking about the same thing. Lucifer itself is almost certainly not a reference to the Adversary, for one... especially considering the word that would be corrupted into it showed up precisely once, talking about something else.

People put so much random cruft on that critter. I get that the fanfiction felt the need for some extra spice, but still

The pride, the hatred, the rebellion... buncha' other stuff. More or less none of it supported by canon. It's faintly irritating some days, y'know? Whatever happened to that no-false-witness thing? *grumbles*

[wierd]

The division between "cannon" and "noncannon" happened way later than the authoring of these texts.

Prior to this, in the period in which the new testament takes place, those books were considered cannon.

(what I am getting at here, is that you cant simply handwave them away.)

[origamiscienceguy]

it is discussed at length in enoch. link above.

it is a part of the apochrypha. The only mentions of this event in cannon biblical texts are allusions to "the war in heaven", and the genesis chapt 2 reference about giants.

That isn't enough biblical evidence to convince me.

[Orange Wizard]

... of course, that's revelation, which... might not have happened, yet. Right?

It's kind of a mixed bag. What weird said is the usual interpretation, even among those of us who agree that most of the fanfics are bunk.

For reference:

7And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Michael is a/the archangel, which appears elsewhere to be a post of some significance. No idea what it means otherwise.
It's made pretty clear by repetition ad nauseam that the dragon is Satan/etcetera. He was tossed to Earth just in time for a date with a naked couple in a garden, where God basically said "Screw you, snake, eat dust and die (eventually)."

[wierd]

Enoch was penned some time in the second century BCE. Or, about 200ish years before christ.  At the time christ was traipsing about Jerusalem, it was considered sacred, and part of the religious tradition.

It cannot be simply handwaved off when reviewing the religion's historic roots. The current bible's form is the result of revisionism by scribes some 300 years AFTER christ, in an effort to standardize the faith's practice.

History. it's good for your mind.

[Rolan7]

Lucifer (satan) is a seraphim, yes.

the cherubim were the "watchers", discussed at length in the apochryphal book of enoch.

The "demons" of abrahamic religions are the "giant" offspring created by the fallen watchers getting it on with human females that they found sexy. (genesis chapt 2, and first part of enoch.) To make this "work", the watchers altered themselves. in doing so, they ceased being the perfect creations of god, and became corruptions that could not be redeemed. Lucifer was the architect of this, after convincing a good third of the angelic hosts to abandon god, god's creation plan for mankind, and do thier own thing instead. Lucifer was #2 on the totem pole, being the literal right hand man of God. (the other being Michael, who remained loyal during the attempted coup) The angels are not normally physical beings, and are instead "spirit beings." This is why alterations were necessary, and also why they could not be redeemed afterwards. Thier offspring, being a synthesis of fleshly bodies and spirit bodies, had no real place either in heaven or on earth, and "survived" after thier deaths as incorporiated spirit beings, but retaining fleshly appetites. Their fathers were banished (to what I swear sounds like a description of a big metallic asteroid), and imprisoned away from the earth until the end of days, before the time of judgement-- at that time, they will be judged along with what remains of thier children, and the wicked fallen of the human race.

Demons possess humans in order to sate these more carnal apetites/vices, and also out of spite; they hate humans, who are given every chance to succed, where they are/were denied even a single chance, and were doomed the moment they were concieved. These hybrid offspring are called "nephilim", or "fallen ones."


Yay religious studies. Yay.

First off, Lucifer was a human king.  The only mention of Lucifer, Isaiah 14:12 on, is fairly clear:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/is/14.html

As for Satan being a cherub or seraphim, there is some contention.  Some say Satan must have been a seraphim because he was of high rank.  Others point to Ezekiel 28:15-18, which describe a cherub who seems to be Satan:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ezek/28.html

Either way...  Seraphim and cherubim are mainly described as having monstrous forms, but I suggest that all angels (and God) can take human form if they wish.  And that shared image is what God referred to in Genesis 1:26:
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

Edit:  All this is under the assumption of the Bible being true, naturally.

[Frumple]

Enoch was penned some time in the second century BCE. Or, about 200ish years before christ.  At the time christ was traipsing about Jerusalem, it was considered sacred, and part of the religious tradition.

It cannot be simply handwaved off when reviewing the religion's historic roots. The current bible's form is the result of revisionism by scribes some 300 years AFTER christ, in an effort to standardize the faith's practice.

All I can really say is it would be (even more) amazing(ly silly) if we held theologians to the early non-biblical texts, too.

I'd be for it. Would be fun to watch.

[wierd]

The clarification on the differences between seraphim and cherubim are mentioned in enoch, where the throne room is described in greater detail. The seraphim stand closer to god's throne, and have all the weird wings and shit.

There are 4 watchers in the throne room, and get the same basic description they have in the ezekiel reference. The text outright calls them watchers.

It then refers to the fallen angels also as watchers.


Frumple:  Oh, you would simply LOOOOOVE enoch then!

The second half of that book discusses hidden knowledge that god gave to enoch, including information about celestial objects, which dont quite match up to modern observations.