Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[BurnedToast]

Urgh the Great Power diplomacy malus in all TW/Paradox games really pisses me off - it's basically just a flat 'you're doing well' penalty which makes no logical sense. Always modded out instantly.

It makes perfect sense. The worst part of any 4x style game is the last say... 25% - 33% or so where it's just a foregone conclusion and you're mindlessly mopping up the enemy.

Great power malus is basically just a soft version of the realm divide from S2 - It's not punishing you for doing well, it's rewarding you by keeping the game interesting. If nobody likes you, it means you have to attack (or at least defend) multiple fronts instead of just building 10 doomstacks, clumping them up, and rolling over the AIs one at a time.

Maybe it's not handled perfectly (I'm actually not sure how it works) but the idea behind it at least is good.

[Shooer]

The problem is that it starts having an effect way before that point.  Conquer your neighbors to fast and then you finally meet someone that naturally would love you, and also naturally hated the people you took over; but because you now are so much bigger they automatically hate you and you can't even try and stem the eventual declaration of war in 6 turns after contact.  Oh well, only 250 more regions of 298 to go.

[umiman]

Also it doesn't make sense to players. Just feels arbitrary and convoluted.

[Digital Hellhound]

It makes a certain amount of sense. Big, expanding empires are going to be threatening and make people fear they’ll be next. Usually fighting their enemies and whatnot gets you enough positive modifiers to counter it anyway. Also, IIRC Settra (all Tomb Kings?) have an opposite modifier which makes them easy allies in the late game.

[Mech#4]

Yah, Settra and some other factions do admire large empires. I usually take the great power penalty as a "you're big and probably going to come after us next" type thing.

Though I do understand. Diplomacy is difficult, especially for some factions. In particular, everyone has an aversion to Skaven, which makes sense of course, but it's difficult to feel the Skavens habit of manipulation. Greasing factions relations with gold helps some what, I've done that when playing as Von Carsteins to get Vampire Counts to ally with me so I can confederate later on, but it tends to require repeated gifts over quite a few turns. Though that comes in with another issue; why give gold, unless you want all the Legendary Lords together, if you can just take what you want via force.

Related to the Skaven aversion, it sometimes feels like destruction factions (Greenskins in particular), because no one really likes them, they get dogpiled by other order factions like Dwarfs and Border Princes early on meaning they don't survive often beyond 100 turns.

[Teneb]

CA has announced changes to a bunch of LLs, most of them old ones, coming in the next patch. I've compiled what I could find below, with a few notes in parenthesis when I felt that it needed some explanation. If a LL or even a race does not appear below, it's because there's no change. Unless otherwise noted, all these effects go on top of previous ones.

Spoiler: High Elves (click to show/hide)

Tyrion

• -50% construction cost for the Shrine of Khaine
• +20 relations with other High Elves
• +3 recruit rank for Lothern Sea Guard units (Tyrion's army)

Spoiler: Dark Elves (click to show/hide)

Morathi

• -40 relations with Khatep
• -50% upkeep for heroes
• The -25% cost reduction to constructing the Sorcery chain buildings is now a faction effect

Spoiler: Skaven (click to show/hide)

Tretch Craventail

• His melee buffs are now a lord effect instead of a faction one

Spoiler: Empire (click to show/hide)

Karl Franz

• Moved his +10 relations with imperials to be a faction effect
• Upkeep reduction to Greatswords and Reiksguard increased from 10% to 15%
• Leadership buff increased from +2 to +8

Balthasar Gelt

• Upkeep reduction for wizards raised from 25% to 50%
• Lore of Metal spells cast by Gelt cost 20% less magic
• +10% missile damage to artillery (Gelt's army)
• The +2 to Wizard recruit rank is now a faction ability

Volkmar the Grim

• Item drop chance increased from 10% to 20%
• The +2 to Warrior Priest recruit rank is now a faction ability
• Upkeep reduction of Flagellants increased from 15% to 30%
• +30% replenishment rate for Flagellants (Volkmar's army)
• +14 melee defense for Flagellants (Volkmar's army)
• +12% physical resistance for Flagellants (Volkmar's army)

Spoiler: Dwarfs (click to show/hide)

Thorgrim Grudgebearer

• +20 relations with Dwarfs
• Cost reduction for military buildings increased from 10% to 25%
• Upkeep reduction of Hammerers and Longbeards from 10% to 15%
• Recruit rank for Hammerers increased from +1 to +3
• Leadership aura size of Thorgrim increased from 15% bigger to 75% bigger

Ungrim Ironfist

• Slayer buildings cost 75% less
• Recruitment cost reduction for Slayers increased from 25% to 50%
• +30% replenishment rate for Slayers (Ungrim's army)
• The 25% upkeep reduction of Karak Kadrin has been limited only to Ungrim's army
• +10 melee attack for Slayers (Ungrim's army)

Belegar Ironhammer

• +10 leadership when fighting Greenskins or Skaven

Grombrindal

• Evasion chance in Underway increased from +40% to +60%
• +20% weapon strength to all armies when fighting elves
• +10 leadership to all units in Grombrindal's army
• Grombrindal's reinforcement range increased from +30% to +50%

Spoiler: Greenskins (click to show/hide)

Grimgor Ironhide

• Faction-wide movement range buff increased from 5% to 10%
• Upkeep reduction of Black Orcs and Big 'Uns increased from 10% to 15%
• Leadership for Black Orcs increased from 6% to 12% (Grimgor's army)
• Armor for Black Orcs increased from +5 to +10 (Grimgor's army)
• +30% post-battle loot income

Azhag the Slaughterer

• Research rate increased from +10% to +25%
• -25 construction time for settlement chain buildings (all regions!)
• -1 construction time for settlement chain buildings
• Income from sacking settlements increased from +10% to +25%
• Azhag's leadership aura size increased from +15% to 75% (This was big for the dwarfs, but for greenskin it's even better)

Skarsnik

• +14 charge bonus for Goblin Squig Hoppers (Skarsnik's army)

Wurrzag

• -50% recruitment cost for Savage Orcs (Wurrzag's army)

Spoiler: Vampire Counts (click to show/hide)

Mannfred Von Carstein

• Starts with +1 blood kiss
• Faction-wide movement range buff increased from 5% to 10%
• Upkeep reduction for Black Knights and Grave Guard increased from 10% to 15%
• Recruit rank for Black Knights and Grave guard increased from +1 to +2
• +30 Winds of Magic power pool (possibly Mannfred's army only)
• Leadership when fighting humans increased from +5 to +10

Helman Ghorst

• +12 charge bonus for Corpse Carts
• +3 recruit rank for Corpse Carts
• Research Rate buff moved to be a faction effectand increased from 10% to 30%
• The power that grants poison attacks to all units in Ghort's army is now a lord effect

Vlad Von Carstein

• Starts with +1 Blood Kiss
• +10% campaign movement range
• Undying Love and army-wide Vanguard are now lord effects

Isabella Von Carstein

• Starts with +1 Blood Kiss

Heinrich Kemmler

• New starting position (Blackstone Post) and faction (Barrow Legion)
• +30 diplomatic relations with "worshippers of Chaos" (I don't know if this means all 3 Chaotic factions or just Archaon's lads)
• Upkeep reduction for Necromancers increased from 25% to 50%
• Mountains are suitable climates
• Immune to corruption-based attrition (Kemmler's army)

Spoiler: Norsca (click to show/hide)

Wulfrik the Wanderer

• Upkeep reduction for Marauders increased from 10% to 15%
• Wulfrik's reinforcement range increased from 20% to 30%

Throgg

• Physical resistance of Trolls and Ice Trolls increased from 10% to 15%
• Upkeep reduction of Trolls and Ice Trolls increased from 15% to 20%

Spoiler: Bretonnia (click to show/hide)

Louen Leouncour

• Leadership aura for all attacking lords increased from 25% to 50%
• +8 melee attack to all units when fighting Greenskins, Chaos, and Undead (Louen's army)
• +12 leadership to all units when fighting Greenskins, Chaos and Undead (Louen's army)

Alberic de Bordelaux

• Income from trade increased from +5% to +25%
• -1 recruitment duration for all Bretonnian Knight units
• Melee defense of Knights of the Realm increased from +5 to +10 (Alberic's army)

Spoiler: Wood Elves (click to show/hide)

Orion

• No longer reduces upkeep and recruitment for Wild Riders
• -20% upkeep for all cavalry units
• No longer grants +8% speed to all elf units
• +20% weapon strength to Wild Riders (Orion's army)
• +8 charge bonus to Wild Riders (Orion's army)

Durthu

• -30% upkeep for forest spirits (Durthu's army)
• +10 charge bonus for Dryads, Treekin and Treemen (Durthu's army)

Spoiler: Beastmen (click to show/hide)

Khazrak One-Eye

• Leadership when fighting humans increased from +5 to +10
• Income from raiding increased from +10% to +40%
• -30% upkeep for Bestigors
• Recruitment cost reduction for Bestigors increased from -30% to -50%
• +3 recruitment rank for Bestigors (Khazrak's army)
• -1 recruitment duration for Bestigors (Khazrak's army)

Malagor the Dark Omen

• Capacity for Bray Shamans increased from +1 to +2
• +2 Horde Growth (all armies)
• -8 enemy leadership for all enemy armies in the same region
• -8% replenishment rate for all enemy armies in the same region
• Bray Shaman recruitment rank increased from +1 to +3 (Malagor's horde)

Morghur the Shadowgave

• Chaos corruption for all characters increased from +2 to +3
• Minotaur upkeep malus decreased from +40% to +30%
• Chaos Spawn upkeep reduction increased from -40% to -60%
• Chaos Attrition buff for local region increased from +8% to +12%
• +20% missile resistance for Chaos Spawn (Morghur's army)
• +8 melee attack for Chaos Spawn (Morghur's army)

Spoiler: Warriors of Chaos (click to show/hide)

Archaon the Everchose

• Leadership for Chaos Warriors increased from +5 to +10
• Recruitment cost reduction for Chaos Warriors increased from -15% to -30%
• Diplomatic relations with everyone decreased from -20 to -30
• No longer grants 10% physical resistance to Chaos Knights
• +5% ward save to all units (Archaon's army)
• Income from razing settlements increased from +25% to +50%

Kholek Suneater

• +4 Chaos corruption for all characters
• Recruitment cost reduction of Dragon Ogres increased from -50% to -60%
• Now only grants -30% upkeep reduction to Dragon Ogres in his own army
• Now only grants +10 melee attack to Dragon Ogre Shaggoths in his own army

Prince Sigvald the Magnificent

• Leadership against humans increased from +5 to +15
• Armour for lords and embedded heroes increased from +10 to +15
• +3 recruitment rank for Marauder units (Sigvald's army)
• Horde growth buff increased from +1 to +3 (Sigvald's army)
• -60% upkeep reduction for Chaos Marauders (Sigvald's army)

+12 charge bonus for Corpse Carts

EDIT: I swear, lists are finnicky in this forum

[Mech#4]

I'm rather suprised at the -40 Relations with Khatep Morathi gets. From what I see Khatep already has a hard time up there dealing with Dark Elves, Skaven and Norsca, not really lasting long or expanding that far.

The -1 turn recruitment time for Bestigors with Khazrak is nice. I understand that they're a bit of an oddity in the Beastmen army (heavily armoued troops) but 3 turns often means you're taking 3 turns of currency drain, something you can't really afford until later on.

Oh boy, +5% Ward save on all units in Archaons army.

The leadership buff Karl Franz gets should be useful and the increased reinforcement range for Grombrindal to 50% will surely be most annoying.

Heinrich Kemmlar's increase to diplomacy with worshippers of Chaos is interesting. I don't know if he had any real ties to Chaos outside of Krell, maybe it's to do with him being in Drachenfels (Blackstone Pass)?


Is Azhag supposed to have -25% Construction Cost for Settlement Cain Buildings? -25 Construction time would be interesting with buildings being built several turns before you can get them.

[Teneb]

Heinrich Kemmlar's increase to diplomacy with worshippers of Chaos is interesting. I don't know if he had any real ties to Chaos outside of Krell, maybe it's to do with him being in Drachenfels (Blackstone Pass)?

Kemmler, in addition to being the OC (do not steal) of Warhammer, is pretty much a Chaos necromancer.

[Mech#4]

Heinrich Kemmlar's increase to diplomacy with worshippers of Chaos is interesting. I don't know if he had any real ties to Chaos outside of Krell, maybe it's to do with him being in Drachenfels (Blackstone Pass)?

Kemmler, in addition to being the OC (do not steal) of Warhammer, is pretty much a Chaos necromancer.

Hm, knew he was pretty much the first character but I only really know him as the Wanderer. I didn't know that he had more ties to chaos then Krell.
::Reads:: Ah I see. He made a deal with the chaos gods to restore his mind and powers.

[Tack]

I feel like giving more melee defense and physical resistance to flagellants was... uncalled for.

[umiman]

I feel like giving more melee defense and physical resistance to flagellants was... uncalled for.

Only for Volkmar's army though. And Volkmar isn't exactly a great lord to use in combat.

[Teneb]

I feel like giving more melee defense and physical resistance to flagellants was... uncalled for.

Only for Volkmar's army though. And Volkmar isn't exactly a great lord to use in combat.

It probably gives his army one of the best tarpits for Empire though.

EDIT: Too bad it's just his army and so to have that you need to sacrifice the great effects granted by Karl and Gelt.

[GiglameshDespair]

Well, I completed my tomb Kings campaign. From horrible grind of endless skeleton trash hordes against the lizardmen, to the grind of endless elite skeleton trash hordes with big stompy constructs against elite hoerth sword master elven hordes.

I am now very tired of trash-main armies. What would be the most different gameplay faction?

I already tried the dwarves, but they seemed so impossibly slow to do anything.

[umiman]

Well, I completed my tomb Kings campaign. From horrible grind of endless skeleton trash hordes against the lizardmen, to the grind of endless elite skeleton trash hordes with big stompy constructs against elite hoerth sword master elven hordes.

I am now very tired of trash-main armies. What would be the most different gameplay faction?

I already tried the dwarves, but they seemed so impossibly slow to do anything.

Lizardmen. Also Chaos.

Both involve walking in a straight line towards your enemy and killing everything in your way with really expensive units and lords that can solo entire universes.

[Burnt Pies]

Almost every faction starts out as trash-main, off the top of my head only dwarves, Wood Elves and lizards have basic units with reasonable stats. Dwarf Warriors, Saurus and Eternal Guard/Dryads are all notable for being pretty well statted for where you get them, and even the basic wood elf archers are scarily effective with the fire on the move and massive range combo.

Chaos low tiers are trash, but it's not hard to get to the level where you can start churning out their midtier chaos warriors within a few turns of starting.

If you're just after elite endgame armies, most of them will let you swap out your early tiers of chaff for either a solid anvil infantry unit or a good attacker, along with the support in either flankers or ranged to demolish a foe. Maybe not Bretonnia; their infantry never gets good.

Avoid skaven like the plague.