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[Drakale]

Well, that kinda depict the US border guard as inhumane monsters, which is different from my perception. What kind of question is that anyway?

[Loud Whispers]

No, trump actually said that he was sad that the people at his rallies weren't violent enough with protesters. Actually said this.

And if you're going to arrest 1/25th of the population of the entire country, you do need expansive new police powers to stop and search virtually everyone, bust into private residences (since a lot of housekeepers are illegals). It's daft to suggest this could be achieved with "business as usual". You have to be brutal to get something like this done. It takes a Stalin, Mao, or Hitler level of population control.

Yeah source me because if it is I think it's the same one where the protesters were behaving like animals and posed a threat

Also I thought you already had stop and search powers, though I don't see why you'd need those. I also thought you already had powers to search private residences. I also thought you already had profiles for all your people. You also already have border police searching and deporting migrants.
What's new? Well, other than everyone being Hitler AND Stalin AND Mao.

I'd like to see your sources for that, I find it hard to believe.

If you see a source that confirms this, what effect, if any will it have on your views?

Lol your views need no sources

[mainiac]

Lol your views need no sources

True but have one any.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/

[Vector]

Rape.
Detention camps; more on camps.
Pew report: More leaving than entering.

I'd like to add that I've read stories of this kind multiple times over the past few years, and I hear these facts over. and over. and over. and over again. I don't have all of my sources, but the data has been very consistent. I wouldn't bring this up to you now as fact if I hadn't heard it so consistently from places I trust.

[Reelya]

For the 80% rape thing, the only detailed reports I found were that they were raped by the people smugglers, and often saved by border patrol. Because if 80% of incoming illegals were raped by Border Patrol, then this would imply that US Border Patrol was intercepting 80% of illegal entries, a clear falsehood.

The detention center abuses can be bad, but they're not the same thing as the 80% rapes thing: that is done almost entirely by the criminal gangs that control the border crossings.

Mind you this is separate to what I was saying, which was that if you round up 11 million people and put them into guantanamo-like camps, you're going to have a humanitarian crisis. And "border police" won't be doing this. These people are living in normal communities around the USA and usually working, not breaking any other laws. You would need to pry into virtually everyone's life to work out who is who. And the source do back up that whole families are rountinely shunted into camps, already:

The way the government detains illegal immigrants often breaks fundamental constitutional guarantees, and holding whole families in detention is a particularly harsh abuse of human rights, the U.S. Civil Rights Commission said in a controversial new report Thursday, wading deeply into the immigration debate.

There are almost 4.5 million children in the USA who have parents who are illegal. So along with the 11 million illegals you now have 4.5 million kids who's parents are now in camps, and you either throw those kids into the camps for a total of 15 million, or you take them from their parents at gunpoint, and put them in institutions. You pick.

[Loud Whispers]

True

Cheeky monkey

but have one any.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-than-coming-to-the-u-s/

Pew hispanic by Ana Gonzalez-Barrera

Hmmmmm

Measuring migration flows between Mexico and the U.S. is challenging because there are no official counts of how many Mexican immigrants enter and leave the U.S. each year.

Lel that's helpful

In addition, stricter enforcement of U.S. immigration laws, particularly at the U.S.-Mexico border (Rosenblum and Meissner, 2014), may have contributed to the reduction of Mexican immigrants coming to the U.S. in recent years. According to one indicator, U.S. border apprehensions of Mexicans have fallen sharply, to just 230,000 in fiscal year 2014 – a level not seen since 1971 (Krogstad and Passel, 2014). At the same time, increased enforcement in the U.S. has led to an increase in the number of Mexican immigrants who have been deported from the U.S. since 2005 (U.S. Department of Homeland Security, 2014).

Wew
It's working, thanks Obama

[Vector]

To be completely clear, my argument was not about Border Patrol raping 80% of the women, although I can see why it would be assumed that I meant Border Patrol was committing the rapes in question. Yes, most of the rapes are, in my understanding, being committed by coyotes.

[redwallzyl]

loudwhispers your being really petty.

[Drakale]

Ok so the rape thing has nothing to do with the US policies, not sure why it's mentioned at all.

https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2015/11/appallingly-dishonest-pew-study-on-immigration-trend-from-mexico

this seem to suggest a different picture than the other article, but it's pretty much a liberal vs conservative turf war, so I don't know who's bullshitting harder.

[hector13]

loudwhispers your being really petty.

He's a serial shitposter, what do you expect?

[Shadowlord]

Well, that kinda depict the US border guard as inhumane monsters, which is different from my perception. What kind of question is that anyway?

This isn't about the camps, but it's relevant:

José Antonio Elena Rodríguez was 16 when he was gunned down on a street in Nogales, Mexico, in October 2012. He was shot several times in the back by a United States Border Patrol agent, firing through the fence from Nogales, Ariz. The boy was unarmed; his family said he had been walking home from a basketball game.

The Border Patrol has insisted that the agent was defending himself from rock-throwers on the Mexican side. But a federal grand jury on Wednesday charged the agent with second-degree murder. The indictment lends credence to what José Antonio’s family and activists on both sides of the border have long insisted: that this was another senseless killing by a member of an agency notorious for the reckless use of deadly force.

The agent’s union has asked the public to withhold judgment, a fair request. But it is fair, too, for others to demand openness and accountability from the Border Patrol in this and other cross-border shootings of unarmed civilians, in which basic information and answers have been sorely lacking.

In José Antonio’s case, the agent’s claim of self-defense would seem implausible to anyone who visits the spot in hilly Nogales where the teenager fell. It is hard to imagine him throwing anything across the road, up a 25-foot embankment and then over the fence and hitting, much less hurting, anybody. A major leaguer might be able to hurl a baseball that far, but a 16-year-old boy with a dangerous rock? No.

There are a number of other cases where border agents were said to have taken dubious and lethal action. A critical 2013 report by the Police Executive Research Forum, a law enforcement policy group, seriously questioned the Border Patrol’s policies on deadly force — it found that agents would deliberately stand in the way of fleeing cars, to justify shooting at them. It urged the agency to stop that, and to forbid agents to shoot at people “throwing objects not capable of causing serious physical injury or death to them” — that is, teenagers with rocks. It said both such changes would be “significant departures from current practice.”

Gil Kerlikowske, the commissioner of Customs and Border Protection, which includes the Border Patrol, took office promising greater transparency from his troubled agency, which continues to be dogged by reports of misuse of force and other abuses.

He has a difficult job in building the confidence of border communities that have been demanding accountability and justice. A federal indictment, with an overdue airing of facts in one disturbing case, may be one step in that direction.

An in-depth article: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/06/magazine/10-shots-across-the-border.html?_r=2&referer=&smtyp=cur

[Loud Whispers]

Nah I see people using numbers caused by stricter immigration control reducing illegal migration and trying to use them to justify lowering immigration control

Like wat

[Lord Shonus]

Yeah source me because if it is I think it's the same one where the protesters were behaving like animals and posed a threat

Trump, Feb. 1:

[guote]So if you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of him, would you? Seriously, OK, just knock the hell. I promise you I will pay for the legal fees, I promise, I promise.[/quote]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3fKpztpTY0

Trump, Feb. 16: (referring to a supporter who assaulted a protester that was carrying a "Make America Great. Keep All Immigrants" sign

Alright, thank you. Who is that person who stood — that was so great. Who was the person that did that? Put up your hand. Put up your hand. I wanna — come on. Bring that person up. I love (unintelligible). Come on up here. So amazing.

Trump, Feb. 22:

Look, see, he’s smiling. See, he’s having a good time. Ah, I love the old days, you know. You know what I hate. There’s a guy, totally disruptive, throwing punches. We’re not allowed to punch back anymore. I love the old days. You know what they used to do to guys like that when they were in a place like this? They’d be carried out on a stretcher, folks. … He’s walking out like — big high fives, smiling, laughing. I’d like to punch him in the face.

Security from the event states that the protestor was not throwing punches or acting violently.


Trump, March 9:

What’s more fun than a Trump rally, right? In the good old days, this doesn’t happen because they used to treat them very, very rough. And when they protested once, you know, they would not do it again so easily. But today they walk in and they put their hand up and they put the wrong finger in the air at everybody, and they get away with murder, because we’ve become weak. We’ve become weak, and we really have become weak.

Trump, March 11:

Part of the problem, and part of the reason it takes so long [to remove protesters], is nobody wants to hurt each other anymore, right, and they’re [the security officers] being politically correct the way they take them out – so it takes a little bit longer and honestly protesters they realize it, they realize that there are no consequences to protesting anymore. There used to be consequences. There are none anymore.

Also I thought you already had stop and search powers, though I don't see why you'd need those. I also thought you already had powers to search private residences. I also thought you already had profiles for all your people. You also already have border police searching and deporting migrants.

Stop and search is illegal. Entering a private residence without the possession of a judicial warrant authorizing you to enter and search that specific residence is illegal.

[Shadowlord]

Ok so the rape thing has nothing to do with the US policies, not sure why it's mentioned at all.

https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2015/11/appallingly-dishonest-pew-study-on-immigration-trend-from-mexico

this seem to suggest a different picture than the other article, but it's pretty much a liberal vs conservative turf war, so I don't know who's bullshitting harder.

Yet, Pew was dishonest enough to report this data as if it reflects the current reality

Net Loss of 140,000 from 2009 to 2014; Family Reunification Top Reason for Return

That's the subtitle. In big italicized letters. Right under the title.

The years are repeated throughout the Pew article.

The Conservative Review article's entire premise is absurd.

[Drakale]

I believe the point is that the article use outdated data that are not reflecting current trend, but as I mentioned both are suspect to me...