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[Flying Dice]

Yeah, suffrage is just the very tip of the iceberg when it comes to citizenship, especially in modern states where it's very difficult to fake citizenship.

[Reelya]

I may be sounding hyperbolic, but this is actually in line with what Arizona tried to do on a state level, where the legislature there wanted to create a two-tiered system of birth certificates, with the chosen ones having the regular bith certificates, and the filth getting the "not really a person" birth certificates. Clearly that would have created a class people who had no other citizenship except American, so you can't even deport them, but them and their descendents for perpetuity wouldn't be legally seen as real people.

Luckily, that was nipped in the bud since citizenship is a federal thing, and Arizona's attempt to create America Apartheid^(tm) fell through. Unluckily, some of the republican presidential candidates have resurrected the concept.

And several southern states have just flat out refused to issue birth certificates to children there (Texas for one), so we're already seeing this class of stateless children being created. It's a huge issue, partly for the reasons I outlined. Such a thing is actually a direct threat to the concept of modern civil society, not just democracy. Think about gun laws for a start: "the people" have the right to bear arms, but if you're not a citizen, you no longer count as "people" as far as the constitution goes.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If only I cared enough to trace Trump's face over it.

[Reelya]

So Carson thinks Trumps Mexican wall is a bad idea, because it's too expensive. So he proposes drones instead. What happens when the drug dealers hack those drones control systems and turn them into drug drones? Come on get real, will anything less than Bagger 288 do the job? It can handle doom robots from the future, so clearly a few Mexicans will just turn into Mexican slurry.

EDIT: Anyway back to the wall idea. It's perfect. All through history those megaproject walls have worked flawlessly to protect the people that built them. The Berlin Wall prevented East Germany from falling, Hadrians wall prevented anything bad happening to the Romans, the wall of Constatinople did an excellect job keeping the Turks out, and the Great Wall of China was an excellent investment in keeping the Mongols out of china. With the flawless track record of giant walls, it's obvious that America should invest in a 2000 mile long wall.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Pff, amateurs. I'd just pass an executive order issuing military-grade flamethrowers to the volunteer border patrol groups and tell the FBI to stop watching them. Problem solved at minimal cost to the American people! *Trump grin* *finger guns*

[Reelya]

Just have a bounty on "mexican's ears" and treat the border zone like a PvE area in an MMO. The most efficient hunters will flourish in line with the free market, and the wanna-be heros can go out there and get their hunting jollies too, while getting a few bucks here are there for beer.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The fucked up part is that would probably be really popular. Not even because of racism, but excitement-seeking. Frankly, I'm surprised that there aren't a plague of underground fight and/or deathmatch clubs.

[Reelya]

Nah, those are 1 on 1. Hunters only like it when they have excessive ordinance vs the thing they are hunting. Also why many of these people like to watch the wrestling but would never get in the ring themselves.

[scriver]

Hence, what I mean by goodbye to modern democracy. It would become akin to Athenian democracy where only a small number of people had basic rights and the rest were a slave caste.

Or Germanic democracy. Or proto-Polish Slavic democracy.

...Not that important, just chiming in to see through my agenda of constantly reminding people that Athens was not at all the "cradle of democracy" that the Greco-Romano-centric history view wants us to believe.

 

I may be sounding hyperbolic, but this is actually in line with what Arizona tried to do on a state level, where the legislature there wanted to create a two-tiered system of birth certificates, with the chosen ones having the regular bith certificates, and the filth getting the "not really a person" birth certificates. Clearly that would have created a class people who had no other citizenship except American, so you can't even deport them, but them and their descendents for perpetuity wouldn't be legally seen as real people.

I can't disagree with your points, but this made me curious: Do the US not allow double citizenships? Because for most countries, as far as I know, a child born to a citizen abroad would still have a right (or opportunity) to apply for more-or-less-automatic citizenship in the country they come from.

[Flying Dice]

There's no explicit discussion of dual citizenship in U.S. law code as far as I'm aware, but in Kawakita v. United States the SCOTUS recognized the legal basis for dual citizenship and that it was a reasonable and acceptable state of being, and in Vance v. Terrazas they ensured that U.S. citizenship cannot be lost unless the citizen voluntarily renounces it to the U.S. or commits treason.

That being said, naturalizing as a U.S. citizen requires that you renounce all allegiances to foreign states, though you retain your citizenship status. The flip side is sort of interesting--a U.S. citizen can go to another state and renounce their U.S. citizenship, but will still be recognized as a U.S. citizen in the U.S. so long as they don't achieve public office in that country, renounce their citizenship to a U.S. consular officer, or commit treason against the U.S.

But basically the only way for a person seeking U.S. citizenship to be unable to hold dual citizenship is if the laws and obligations of their home country conflict with U.S. law.

[Sheb]

Funnily enough, a lot of Belgian-Moroccans have the opposite issue: it's not possible to get rid of Moroccan nationality of your parents had it, even if you were born and spend your whole life in Belgium.

Which lea dot the case of Ali Arass, who was born in Spain, lived is whole life in Belgium, took the Belgian citizenship but was then arrested, deported to Morocco, confessed to terrorism under torture and is now serving a long sentence there while the Belgian government don't give a fuck because he's officially a Moroccan citizen.

[sluissa]

That bring up the other thing, Jus sanguinis citizenship.

International law tries to guarantee (as best it can, countries get a bit picky when you start laying down strict decrees upon how they decide citizenship) through "right of return" and other methods that nobody completely loses citizenship. You are either born with citizenship where you are from or you inherit it through your bloodline.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, currently the easiest way for a US citizen to get dual citizenship without undue trouble in working around laws is that they're born to parents on diplomatic work in another country. (One parent may or may not need to be from said country, I forget.) I think otherwise if you would generally have a choice of citizenships, you're supposed to choose when you're 18 which you declare as and renounce the other. But as was said, you have to renounce all others when becoming a US citizen, but not all other countries are the same way and you can potentially be a US citizen and become a citizen of another country without having to give up US citizenship. This often works well with the countries that accept Jus sanguinis citizen. If you can prove recent ancestry from that country you're allowed to return.

[redwallzyl]

That bring up the other thing, Jus sanguinis citizenship.

International law tries to guarantee (as best it can, countries get a bit picky when you start laying down strict decrees upon how they decide citizenship) through "right of return" and other methods that nobody completely loses citizenship. You are either born with citizenship where you are from or you inherit it through your bloodline.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, currently the easiest way for a US citizen to get dual citizenship without undue trouble in working around laws is that they're born to parents on diplomatic work in another country. (One parent may or may not need to be from said country, I forget.) I think otherwise if you would generally have a choice of citizenships, you're supposed to choose when you're 18 which you declare as and renounce the other. But as was said, you have to renounce all others when becoming a US citizen, but not all other countries are the same way and you can potentially be a US citizen and become a citizen of another country without having to give up US citizenship. This often works well with the countries that accept Jus sanguinis citizen. If you can prove recent ancestry from that country you're allowed to return.

i have an relative form the Netherlands who recently moved to Canada and to get citizenship they had to renounce their dutch citizenship but they said if they wanted to then get dutch citizenship back by going through process of getting dutch citizenship they could and keep their Canadian citizenship and have the dutch citizenship. so ya countries are weird about it.

[BFEL]

Maybe because there isn't that much of a border issue in the first place? It's not like those immigrants are hurting the US.

Well the only problem I see with it is apparently Obama wants to literally take social security money away from those of us who've been forced to pay into it for X amount of years and throw it at the feet of anyone who feels like hopping over the border. Also he apparently wants to give them free housing, free healthcare (as in not Obamacare because THAT isn't anywhere close to free) and a bunch of other benefits.

So while I personally would be ok with letting anyone in to do their thing, that stops at "and lets give them all our stuff too"

[Sheb]

Are you getting all your news from Fox?