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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1570648 times)

wierd

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3960 on: August 27, 2015, 01:41:21 am »

yes and no. Yes, in that such militias took the place of a more organized national guard; no, in that the militias that were in place were nothing like our national guard except in serving a vital state security function.

The ability to organize a militia is something that needs to be possible when there are no supply lines, and no clear chain of command-- eg, serious shit happened, there are no tanks, no drones, no bombers, and no orders from washington-- but enemy combatants are walking on US soil. The intent is that these militias can be conscripted or coopted by actual military brass as the chain of command is restored, and supply lines opened to successfully repel said invaders. Basically, an armed angry mob able to cause serious logistical problems for the invaders, who's materiel can be readily absorbed and deployed by real armed forces as needed.

again, think french resistence fighters, along side allied troops, supplying ground intelligence, out of bound supplies, and assisting in troop movement, whilst engaged in guerilla actions to make the campaign costly for enemy troop units.

The second amendment basically seeks to ensure that such a network can be functional on invasion day.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3961 on: August 27, 2015, 06:33:59 am »

SCOTUS decided in DC v. Heller that the "militia" clause doesn't actually mean anything at all.

Personally, I think the Second Amendment is a badly-written relic of the late eighteenth century. But the current legal intepretation rests on interpreting the amendment's vague writing in a fairly broad manner- which, like it or not, is standard interpretive procedure. It just sucks that the vague writing in question is part of the Bill of Rights and has to do with weapons, instead of being something harmless like a cabbage farming regulation.
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smjjames

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3962 on: August 27, 2015, 08:05:35 am »

SCOTUS decided in DC v. Heller that the "militia" clause doesn't actually mean anything at all.

Personally, I think the Second Amendment is a badly-written relic of the late eighteenth century. But the current legal intepretation rests on interpreting the amendment's vague writing in a fairly broad manner- which, like it or not, is standard interpretive procedure. It just sucks that the vague writing in question is part of the Bill of Rights and has to do with weapons, instead of being something harmless like a cabbage farming regulation.

Good luck trying to rewrite that amendment, it would be even more difficult to change than Trumps plan to remove the 14th.
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mainiac

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3963 on: August 27, 2015, 10:38:11 am »

The ability to organize a militia is something that needs to be possible when there are no supply lines, and no clear chain of command
....
Basically, an armed angry mob able to cause serious logistical problems for the invaders, who's materiel can be readily absorbed and deployed by real armed forces as needed.
...
again, think french resistence fighters,

Where are you getting this from?  No chain of command?  There's a cemetery five miles from me that's got at least half a dozen officers from the revolutionary era militia.  No supply lines?  Then why did my town have a magazine?  Food wasn't even getting canned until Napoleons time, in the 1780s when you have a magazine that's the complete supply line.
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RedKing

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3964 on: August 27, 2015, 06:05:24 pm »

The ability to organize a militia is something that needs to be possible when there are no supply lines, and no clear chain of command
....
Basically, an armed angry mob able to cause serious logistical problems for the invaders, who's materiel can be readily absorbed and deployed by real armed forces as needed.
...
again, think french resistence fighters,

Where are you getting this from?  No chain of command?  There's a cemetery five miles from me that's got at least half a dozen officers from the revolutionary era militia.  No supply lines?  Then why did my town have a magazine?  Food wasn't even getting canned until Napoleons time, in the 1780s when you have a magazine that's the complete supply line.
^^^^ This.

Colonial militias (pre-1770s) were intended to be local auxiliary forces so that the British Army didn't have to garrison every damn town against French/Spanish/Dutch/Indian attacks. Particularly on the frontiers, where the infrastructure to house and feed army units didn't exist. They also had officers and chains of command because an unorganized, armed mob is precisely the opposite of what the Crown wanted or needed. It was only when the colonies began to get restive that the Crown realized that having organized bodies of armed men with their own stockpiles of weapons was maybe not such a great idea, even if the training of said militias was considered far inferior to the British Regular Army.

In practice, colonial militias were ill-disciplined, poorly trained, poorly equipped and difficult to assemble for military action. They were more of a social club and potential recruiting pool for the Provincial Forces (standing forces recruited directly in the colonies, as opposed to the British-manned Regular Army and the as-needed colonial militias).  Even during the Revolutionary War, the Continental Army (the standing force of the Continental Congress) viewed the colonial militias with disdain.

The lack of effective militia forces is core to why both the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution had language about the states maintaining a "well-regulated militia". The Articles of Confederation even had language that the states would be responsible for providing the arms, ammunition, tents, etc.


EDIT: It should also be noted that the actions of some colonial militias bordered on terroristic at times -- burning farms and houses belonging to known Loyalists, assassinating Loyalists and Crown officials in those areas under British occupation, etc. Particularly in the Southern colonies (NC, SC, GA) there was a very nasty partisan war in the backcountry during the late 1770s to the end of the war, as the Continental Army was only present in New England and the bulk of fighting was between Patriot militias and Loyalist militias, pitting neighbor against neighbor.


In the early 1800's, there was considerable debate abut the role and capabilities of "the militia". Yes, quite a few founders did intend it as a counterweight to the standing army. But frankly, if that was their intent, it's unachievable now. No amount of civilians with semi-auto rifles is going to be able to stand against the US Armed Forces for long, when the Armed Forces have thousands of combat aircraft, heavy artillery, drones, etc. The only thing saving us from the US Armed Forces is that in the event of a military coup or dictatorship, you can be sure that some portion of the Armed Forces would rebel. Hopefully MOST or all of it.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 06:17:04 pm by RedKing »
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Strife26

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3965 on: August 27, 2015, 06:41:31 pm »

That's understating the ability of the well-armed civilian militia being able to make life a holy-fuck annoyance of a low intensity conflict, even with a modern military of Tank, Planes, and Arty killing them in droves. I mean, look at Iraq.
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Baffler

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3966 on: August 27, 2015, 06:46:00 pm »

No amount of civilians with semi-auto rifles is going to be able to stand against the US Armed Forces for long, when the Armed Forces have thousands of combat aircraft, heavy artillery, drones, etc. The only thing saving us from the US Armed Forces is that in the event of a military coup or dictatorship, you can be sure that some portion of the Armed Forces would rebel. Hopefully MOST or all of it.

You need look no further than the United States' current wars in the Middle East to know that this isn't true. Yeah, the losses are disproportionate, but are you really going to claim we have any chance of 'winning' over there?

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Bauglir

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3967 on: August 27, 2015, 07:06:02 pm »

It depends on what you mean by "winning". In the context of a civil war, I think the United States military would do better than in one of its invasions. Besides the general unfamiliarity of the US population with the concept of living in a war zone, a civil war poses an existential threat that would go a long way toward justifying excessive force that a foreign invasion like our misadventures in the Middle East just can't. Especially given the amount of infrastructure that's available within the US borders, as compared to anywhere we've invaded lately. And it wouldn't be as difficult as you might think to stir up the sort of patriotic fervor against "former" US citizens that such a response would require. The main threat wouldn't be from the militias, I think, it'd come from the risk of a split in the Army, depending on the political leadup to the whole nightmare.

Militia groups could probably do some major damage, but the absolute worst I can imagine them mustering is more 9/11s, and while horrific, that's not gonna win a war without some major military support.

I mean, to the extent that it's a thing that could even happen. Strife is admittedly probably a better expert than me, so take everything I just said with a grain of salt approximately the shape and size of a tank.
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Strife26

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3968 on: August 27, 2015, 07:42:17 pm »

To the extent that it could ever happen isn't anything on the time frame. I can't imagine anything that'd turn the military apparatus against the general civilian populace. However, protection of rights in general, and Second Amendment rights in particular aren't for just there for the protection of today, they're for tomorrow and generations to come. At some point in time, that general civilian uprising might be needed to resist against the United States of Earth, Luna, and Mars government or somesuch.
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Frumple

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3969 on: August 27, 2015, 07:50:55 pm »

So this is more than a little hilarious. Tl;dr version: Some business owners in an area manage to gerrymander up some bullshit intended to more or less give them control over a (community improvement, which appears to be sorta' like a smaller voting district related to specific issues) district. Unbeknownst to them, someone registered to vote from an address in the area while they were dicking around trying to bugger our political system up the arse, and we now have, for at least a little while, a pseudo-voting district with a population of exactly one actual voter. Who is apparently leaning towards promptly buggering the bastards right back via her unilateral control over any and all vote-related decrees for the area in question :V
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3970 on: August 27, 2015, 08:30:35 pm »

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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

RedKing

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3971 on: August 27, 2015, 08:44:16 pm »

Donald Trump is "not a fan of Hitler."

I'm...I'm glad?
Pfft.....I was not a fan of Hitler before it became cool.
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Baffler

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3972 on: August 27, 2015, 08:45:49 pm »

Donald Trump is "not a fan of Hitler."

I'm...I'm glad?
Pfft.....I was not a fan of Hitler before it became cool.

So, you weren't a fan of him in the early 30's?
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Quote from: Helgoland
Even if you found a suitable opening, I doubt it would prove all too satisfying. And it might leave some nasty wounds, depending on the moral high ground's geology.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3973 on: August 27, 2015, 08:52:32 pm »

So this is more than a little hilarious.

That moment when you think you're reading the Onion, but it turns out... wait... didn't I already... what was I saying?
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redwallzyl

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Re: Donald Trump's Narcissism Appreciation Megathread
« Reply #3974 on: August 27, 2015, 11:02:02 pm »

the robot Apocalypse is coming! and its starting in north Dakota?

anyway its certainly an interesting development that I'm sure will not go badly wrong at some point in the future.
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