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[RedKing]

Poverty is a national thing, easily found in rural and urban areas. Wealth, however, tends to be more of an urban phenomenon. The South is inherently disadvantaged because of the aforementioned lack of major urban centers. If you look at where poverty is concentrated, it's in the South but it's also in the Rocky Mountain West and the lower Midwest.

If you get to a county-level breakdown, there's two areas which drag down the South overall: eastern Kentucky and the Mississippi Delta (along the Mississippi border with Arkansas and Louisiana). I've been to both areas, and yes...they are some godforsaken places.

Vicksburg, MS was just a depressing city to visit. Actually, the whole state of Mississippi was a depressing study in poverty and, for lack of a better word, abandonment.

Eastern Kentucky is the purest distillation of Appalachia -- mountainous, wooded, sparsely populated, but unsuitable for any large-scale agriculture. There's also enough meth labs, pockets of marijuana fields and even old-fashioned bootlegging to keep the Justice Department busy for decades. Makes sense, when the unemployment rates are typically over 14%. Gotta make money somehow.

But if you look at South Dakota, there are chunks that are even worse. Without even looking, I can tell you those are Native American reservations. I've been there too. They make the South look like the land of plenty. Unemployment rates that top 80% in some cases like the Oglala Sioux (89%) and Cheyenne River Sioux (88%).

If you look at the "New South" (a crescent running from central NC through upstate SC, northern Georgia, northern Alabama and central TN) it actually compares favorably to the Great Lakes region and the Eastern Seaboard in terms of poverty rate.



As to the racism bit -- they say that familiarity breeds contempt, but to truly hate someone, you have to be distant enough to dehumanize them. The African-American population in the South has always been higher than anywhere else in the US, with the exception of major cities like New York, Baltimore and Philadelphia. There's a low-level racism that permeates a lot of the South, based on socio-economic divides as much as anything. Many middle- and upper-class people who might look down on poor blacks look down on poor whites just as much. Poor whites look down on poor blacks because it's about the only demographic they CAN look down on, and because the rhetoric from the Right is that these "lazy blacks" and their "liberal white elite" allies are conspiring to keep poor white folk down. And even then, when you get right down to it, a LOT of poor whites get along with their poor black neighbors just fine. Because when you're poor as shit, anybody else that is too might as well be your friend.

If you look at the history of the Klan and other white supremacy movements in the US, their core isn't in the South, it's the upper Ohio Valley. Indiana was the epicenter of white power in the 1920s, and a swath from Illinois to New Hampshire remains a hotbed of Neo-Nazi/white supremacy activity, as does California.

NY Times did a story last year on Stormfront.org (the Facebook of the Neo-Nazi movement), and the demographics of its members. Surprise...they're not a bunch of Dixie rednecks.

[nenjin]

I didn't say they were all dixie rednecks.

I've just had enough encounters with racism in the South over 20 years to know it's not the same as the rest of the US. Only in the South have I had white, 20 year old cops call my 60-year-old dad "boy." Only in the South have I witnessed actual KKK rallies of substance, and only in the South (and from Southerners) do I hear nigger thrown around in casual, daily conversation. I don't hear people from other regions make statements like "I'll drive around until I can find a restaurant without niggers working in it, because they provide terrible service."

The real difference in racism between north and south, IMO, is that northerners keep their racism internal. They don't vocalize it. They may have racist opinions and take racist actions based on those opinions. They simply don't talk about it openly on your average day. Southerners on the other hand...I swear I can't talk to the Texas/Alabama/Tennessee crew without hearing nigger at least once in a 2 to 3 day span. I also have only heard the "I don't hate black people, I just hate niggers" rationalization of racism from southerners.

[Lord Shonus]

No, but I'm pretty sure they were the first to put it on a flag.

The Finnish Air Force would beg to differ.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[RedKing]

So....the solution is to make Southern racists like Northern racists, where they're just as racist and just as discriminatory, but now they're harder to openly identify?
I fail to see how this is a winning strategy.


Keep in mind too, that for some they genuinely don't realize how offensive it is. I know that seems impossible, but it was true of me up until about high school. It was used regularly by my grandfather (who, apart from being racist, was the kindest, most generous person I've ever known) and so I just started using it too. Which about got my ass kicked one day when I used it in a joking context at school, and left me bewildered. And it was another black student who intervened and kept me from getting my ass kicked. I've never forgotten that.


@LS: Umm....might want to spoiler that, dude. For the massive size, if not for the "HAVE A GIANT FUCKING SWASTIKA ON YOUR SCREEN"

[nenjin]

So....the solution is to make Southern racists like Northern racists, where they're just as racist and just as discriminatory, but now they're harder to openly identify?
I fail to see how this is a winning strategy.

It was an observation, not a solution.

Keep in mind too, that for some they genuinely don't realize how offensive it is. I know that seems impossible, but it was true of me up until about high school. It was used regularly by my grandfather (who, apart from being racist, was the kindest, most generous person I've ever known) and so I just started using it too. Which about got my ass kicked one day when I used it in a joking context at school, and left me bewildered. And it was another black student who intervened and kept me from getting my ass kicked. I've never forgotten that.

I deal with an 88 year old redneck who is the sweetest man ever, and also drops N-bombs like they're going out of style. I genuinely do not believe in this day and age someone from the South doesn't know it's offensive, unless they've been living in complete isolation for the last 20 years and whoever is learnin' them just doesn't bother to mention what the word means. It's not much of an excuse, if it was ever one at all.

Hell, they've even stopped saying it around us (as in, my crew from the north) as much because they know it "makes us uncomfortable." Their own words.

[RedKing]

Hell, they've even stopped saying it around us (as in, my crew from the north) as much because they know it "makes us uncomfortable." Their own words.

Isn't that what you wanted? They're trying to keep it internal.

I'm not trying to be a dick about this, I'm trying to point out that modifying outwards shows of racism doesn't modify attitudes and actions. And it's a hell of a lot easier to just say "no Confederate flags" than it is to have a honest, public debate about racism. It's a subject that makes people angry and defensive (myself included, if that weren't blindly obvious). It's not as cut-and-dried an issue as slavery (and mind you, that was seen as a contentious issue 150 years as well).

And there are ways in which discussions about it can go horribly, horribly wrong. (I always think about the episode of The Office where Michael tries to do "sensitivity training". It's cringetastically hilarious.)




EDIT:
Couple of new polls to look at:

New Jersey GOP Primary (courtesy of Fairleigh Dickinson):

Christie -- 18%
Bush -- 18%
Trump -- 11%
Walker* -- 9%
Rubio -- 6%
Carson -- 6%
Paul -- 5%
Huckabee -- 3%
Cruz -- 3%
Fiorina -- 3%
Santorum -- 2%
Perry -- 2%

Michigan GOP Primary (PPP)

Walker* -- 15%
Bush -- 14%
Carson -- 14%
Trump -- 14%
Rubio -- 9%
Huckabee -- 8%
Cruz -- 5%
Christie -- 5%
Paul -- 4%
Fiorina -- 3%
Kasich* -- 3%
Santorum -- 2%
Perry -- 1%
Graham -- 1%

Iowa GOP Primary (Quinnipiac)

Walker* -- 18%
Carson -- 10%
Trump -- 10%
Paul -- 9%
Cruz -- 9%
Bush -- 8%
Rubio -- 7%
Huckabee -- 5%
Santorum -- 4%
Perry -- 4%
Jindal -- 3%
Fiorina -- 3%
Kasich* -- 2%
Christie -- 1%

National GOP Primary (CNN/ORC)

Bush -- 19%
Trump -- 12%
Huckabee -- 8%
Carson -- 7%
Paul -- 7%
Walker* -- 6%
Rubio -- 6%
Perry -- 4%
Cruz -- 3%
Christie -- 3%
Santorum -- 3%
Kasich* -- 2%
Jindal -- 2%
Fiorina -- 1%
Graham -- 1%

To steal a phrase from Ross Perot, that giant sucking sound you hear is Donald Trump taking all the air out of the room for the also-rans. Unless things change considerably in the next month, he's going to be on the debate stage and folks like Lindsey Graham, Bobby Jindal, Carly Fiorina and probably Rick Santorum are NOT. Granted, this could boil down to Jeb Bush running as the voice of sanity versus The Voice Of Insanity (capitalized because it's The Donald) versus the guy who's a little insane but not all the way (Walker). Given the contrarian nature of the GOP rank-and-file however, being considered the crazy candidate might enhance Trump's chances, at least until he flames out spectacularly somewhere down the road.

[FearfulJesuit]

That was...probably the most uncomfortable thing I've watched this week.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

[Carson Intensifies]

We're going downtown, boys. We're going all the way down.

[nenjin]

Isn't that what you wanted? They're trying to keep it internal.

I'd rather they changed their views. But at least they're considering someone's feelings. Too bad it's not actually someone of color.

I'm trying to point out that modifying outwards shows of racism doesn't modify attitudes and actions.

It actually can, if people are willing to do it. Sometimes thoughts do follow action.

And it's a hell of a lot easier to just say "no Confederate flags" than it is to have a honest, public debate about racism.

To note, I don't really have a position on the flag thing, other than one of surprise.

It's a subject that makes people angry and defensive (myself included, if that weren't blindly obvious).

*Shrug* You're Southern. I don't fault you for getting defensive about it, even if you're one of the nice ones.

It's not as cut-and-dried an issue as slavery (and mind you, that was seen as a contentious issue 150 years as well).

Here, I disagree though. Hatefully calling any black person a nigger is pretty cut and dry. Part of it I sort of feel is that southerners aren't willing to call other southerners out on their own shit. Which is what makes the flag deal a thing to me, because it's an example of that happening publicly (nationally. Not, you know, a left-leaning southerner explaining it to Yankees.)

And there are ways in which discussions about it can go horribly, horribly wrong.

"When keeping it real goes wrong."

[RedKing]

It's not as cut-and-dried an issue as slavery (and mind you, that was seen as a contentious issue 150 years as well).

Here, I disagree though. Hatefully calling any black person a nigger is pretty cut and dry. Part of it I sort of feel is that southerners aren't willing to call other southerners out on their own shit. Which is what makes the flag deal a thing to me, because it's an example of that happening publicly (nationally. Not, you know, a left-leaning southerner explaining it to Yankees.)

I should have been clearer. I'm saying that having racist attitudes isn't a black-and-white issue (no pun intended). ACTING on those attitudes is, and should be castigated wherever possible. But the things that lead a person to holding and reinforcing those attitudes is more murky. What's the old saying, "every stereotype starts with a grain of truth"?

I hold that most people who are racist aren't really, they're classist. They're prejudiced against poor people and because that often correlates with minority ethnicity, they conflate the two. You place a well-dressed, obviously successful black man in front of them, and very few would have a problem with him. In fact, they'd probably beam because "Hey, look! I'm not a racist because I'm not scared of this guy!"

Take away the well-dressed black businessman and replace him with a young black guy with droopy pants and gold chains and a grill, and I can hear their sphincters tightening from here. But replace that young black man with a tattooed Latino from the barrios and you'd get the same reaction. For a lot of folks, you could replace him with a white guy wearing a sweaty wife-beater and a Confederate flag baseball cap and five days of unshaven stubble and *still* get the same reaction. Personally, I'm more scared of the latter because I see guys who look like the stereotypical "black urban youth" and "illegal Hispanic immigrant" all the damn time (nearby Durham, NC is a rather diverse city) and have never had any problems. Whereas I know from experience what kind of trouble drunk white rednecks can be.

[nenjin]

What's the old saying, "every stereotype starts with a grain of truth"?

It is true, and we avoid talking about that part of it because we don't want to appear racist in addressing it. But Black people can be ghetto. They can fit every ugly stereotype. I think the difference is, applying your feelings and observations to that individual instead of making it an assumption about others of their group. So that's why stuff like "I'll find a restaurant with no black waiters" is infuriating to me and a truer demonstration of someone's actual beliefs about race. I'll call a bad server a server. I'll call a surly, uneducated, disinterested black server just that. What I won't do.....is assume all black servers in southern restaurants are lazy, and go out of my way to avoid black servers I've never met and have never been served by. And slap the n-word on them just for good measure.

"Hey, look! I'm not a racist because I'm not scared of this guy!"

I've heard this exact thing from one of my guys I work with. One minute he's saying nigger this, nigger that, making fun of the homeless black guy on the turnpike holding a sign asking for money....and the next minute when a black guy has money to give him, he's suddenly smiles and hugs (literally.) The same guy who won't frequent restaurants with black servers, and rarely has anything good to say about their people as a whole, is more than happy to be chummy with them when they're putting cash in his hand.

Again. I'm not saying every seemingly racist slant is just plain old racism. I've been to outer Dallas more than once. That place is a shithole of urban decay, windows with bars and like an 80% black population. That doesn't make them niggers though. That makes them poor black folk. I wish I heard that distinction being made more often. Because in truth when you say nigger does this, nigger does that....what you're really saying is "Yep, that's exactly what I expect out of your people."

[RedKing]

People make sweeping generalizations about a group of people and then assign a linguistic term to that stereotype, which becomes offensive. News at 11.

We could argue the same about "white trash" or "redneck" or "JAP" (Jewish-American Princess, not a person of Japanese ethnicity), but we don't. Now, I realize that n****r is a special case, because of the long history it has and its intertwining with issues of racial violence like lynching.

Not every rural white Southerner is a God-and-guns moron, either. But there's plenty of stereotypes in popular media to reinforce that, and very few people have a problem with that (including me). Because I'll laugh at it just like everyone else, recognizing that there *is* that grain of truth to it. I love movies like Bernie or Sordid Lives or a play like Greater Tuna because they have every Southern stereotype in the book for characters, and while you can laugh at the absurdity, it's sort of a "ha ha oh god I know someone like that in real life, and they may even be a family member".

[nenjin]

And is your ability to laugh off stereotypes of your own people because it's "just the way people are" or a product of the fact your racial group has never been on the bottom? (Hillbillies and trailer trash aside, they're still white and benefit from being white in people's perception.)

Put another way, just because you can laugh off stereotypes of your own group doesn't automatically mean that everyone can or should. I rarely see black people claiming they live in a post-racial world or don't see race.

Also, portrayals in media is leagues away from actual face-to-face interactions in real life. If some guy was going off about gun-toting rednecks and trailer trash in a restaurant somewhere, funny, grain of truth or not, would you have the same reaction?

For the record, I grew up as a kid in Central Tennessee and went back pretty much every year until I was 18. Growing up, I had barbed wire and hillbillies on pretty much every side of the property.

[mainiac]

So....the solution is to make Southern racists like Northern racists, where they're just as racist and just as discriminatory, but now they're harder to openly identify?
I fail to see how this is a winning strategy.

You aren't going to shame or convince people into changing their views.  What you will do is convince them that their views are fringe and make them ashamed to express the hate.  And since expressing their views reinforces the belief, just driving it underground will weaken racism.

[RedKing]

Yeah, because decades of Middle Eastern governments suppressing Islamic extremism and outlawing groups like the Muslim Brotherhood totally weakened Islamic extremism. 

You're basically saying "We can't change people, so we should just shut them the hell up and wait for them to die."

That is so wrong-headed and patently false that I don't know where to begin. I stand as an example of somebody raised as a racist who changed once I considered the issue and thought about my own experiences. There's a fantastic book recently published called How I Shed My Skin by a fellow from eastern NC who was a schoolkid when the first integration efforts came about, and it details with brutal honesty his own racist upbringing and the mentality involved in being a racist, and how he came to recognize his error and change. There are numerous other published works of people who made that change as well.

Unless you plan on banning racist speech altogether, even among private conversations, your notion of driving it underground is a non-starter. It's already far more underground than it was 50 years ago, yet I don't think racism is all that much weaker in terms of outcomes. Black people aren't getting lynched, but they're still getting screwed.



@nenjin: I'll admit you have a point there. I can laugh about it because people don't get shot by cops for being white Southerners. People don't get denied for loans for being hicks. People don't get pulled over for no reason for having a Confederate flag bumper sticker (though that might change). I wasn't trying to say that just because I can laugh at Southern stereotypes means that everyone else should be able to laugh off stereotypes of their in-group as well. I know quite a few gay people are sick of the campy, flamboyant gay characters even when they're portrayed in a positive light.