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[FearfulJesuit]

Bingo.

The ideal isn't a market that's free of government intervention. The ideal is a market that is as unregulated as you can make it once you make it pay for its externalities. The minimum wage, for example, offsets a major externality of the unfettered labor market: people who aren't paid enough end up going into crime to make ends meet, or have to supplement their income with welfare. A liveable minimum wage gets rid of most of the labor market's externalities, so supply and demand can do its thing without burdening the rest of society with its shortcomings.

I think one of the main reasons people dislike capitalism is that some of the most important markets in life- basic foodstuffs, healthcare, labor, housing- don't actually work very well without regulatory intervention: grain speculation hurts the working poor in the third world; the US's abortion of a healthcare system should tell us all we need to know about the unregulated market in healthcare; the unregulated labor market won't pay its employees enough to live on; and so on and so forth. But there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[smjjames]

Ideally the minimum wage should be just above the poverty line, which it definetly hasn't kept pace with.

[FearfulJesuit]

Ideally the minimum wage should be just above the poverty line, which it definetly hasn't kept pace with.

Oh, yeah, the minimum wage isn't high enough at the moment in most places in America. But the situation would be much worse if it didn't exist at all.

[scriver]

EDIT: I am also strongly against mandatory voting. I believe that not voting is just as strong a political expression of opinion as actual voting is. On the whole, I believe it represents a lack of faith in our government and also a lack of faith in the quality of the character of the available candidates, so when people don't vote I don't expect the government to make it mandatory I expect them to DO BETTER. Don't take that too literally, as it's entirely philosophical. I don't vote partially on those grounds and also because it's a bit of a hassle while I'm at college and I don't feel like mailing my vote in (i'm talking voting for all political office here).

The problem with that is that the majority of the government, especially the worst parts, not only don't care whether you have faith in the government, they actively want you to not have faith in it and not vote, because that makes it easier for them to use it to fuck us over with. Why do you think they spend so much money on negative ads? To actively dissuade you from voting.

When you choose not to vote, they don't take it as a sign that they should do better- They take it as a sign that they can do whatever they like and fuck you over as hard as they feel like, cause obviously you can't be bothered to do anything about it.

This is why, rather than mandatory voting, I propose a system in which all votes count. Yes, even uncast and blank ones (uncast would be blank by default). Your parliament ends up being 73% empty seats? Good luck getting a majority. Better try to actually get some more people to vote for you.

[smjjames]

EDIT: I am also strongly against mandatory voting. I believe that not voting is just as strong a political expression of opinion as actual voting is. On the whole, I believe it represents a lack of faith in our government and also a lack of faith in the quality of the character of the available candidates, so when people don't vote I don't expect the government to make it mandatory I expect them to DO BETTER. Don't take that too literally, as it's entirely philosophical. I don't vote partially on those grounds and also because it's a bit of a hassle while I'm at college and I don't feel like mailing my vote in (i'm talking voting for all political office here).

The problem with that is that the majority of the government, especially the worst parts, not only don't care whether you have faith in the government, they actively want you to not have faith in it and not vote, because that makes it easier for them to use it to fuck us over with. Why do you think they spend so much money on negative ads? To actively dissuade you from voting.

When you choose not to vote, they don't take it as a sign that they should do better- They take it as a sign that they can do whatever they like and fuck you over as hard as they feel like, cause obviously you can't be bothered to do anything about it.

This is why, rather than mandatory voting, I propose a system in which all votes count. Yes, even uncast and blank ones (uncast would be blank by default). Your parliament ends up being 73% empty seats? Good luck getting a majority. Better try to actually get some more people to vote for you.

Uh, our Congress is not a Parliament. It's similar in ways, but not the same thing.

That idea sounds fun though, even if unrealistic at worst and confusing at best. Plus you forget that we have a First Past The Post system.

[scriver]

And their parliament is not the same as our riksdag, but they still do the while "fill up in percentages according to how many voted for whoever", right?

[smjjames]

And their parliament is not the same as our riksdag, but they still do the while "fill up in percentages according to how many voted for whoever", right?

It's called Congress, not Parliament!

Collectively it's called Congress, but we have the House of Representatives and the Senate.

[Frumple]

Good luck getting a majority. Better try to actually get some more people to vote for you.

That would probably be about the quickest way in existence to get mandatory voting put in place, at least...

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Zangi]

So on a national level percentages don't matter. Republicans could get 100% of the vote in fifty states, and Democrats could get 51% of the vote in the other half, and they'd still be equal.

When did Murica get another 50 states?

[penguinofhonor]

.

[scriver]

Good luck getting a majority. Better try to actually get some more people to vote for you.

That would probably be about the quickest way in existence to get mandatory voting put in place, at least...

And it's super democratic! Your vote can't be completely suppressed.

So on a national level percentages don't matter. Republicans could get 100% of the vote in fifty states, and Democrats could get 51% of the vote in the other half, and they'd still be equal.

When did Murica get another 50 states?

He's probably counting Europe

I'm a bad American

Coming to theaters this spring

[FearfulJesuit]

Penguinofhonor, why do you hate freedom?

[Helgoland]

So on a national level percentages don't matter. Republicans could get 100% of the vote in fifty states, and Democrats could get 51% of the vote in the other half, and they'd still be equal.

When did Murica get another 50 states?

He's probably counting Europe

Heh, I thought about making that joke...

[smjjames]

I don't think Europe has 50 countries in it. Though if you split up Germany into it's HRE form, you'd probably surpass that. Lets split up France and Italy while we're at it (and so it doesn't look like I'm picking on Germany, which I'm not).