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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1545728 times)

Shadowlord

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16365 on: April 12, 2016, 08:46:39 am »

So, rather than coming in and just arguing and convincing nobody, I'd like to make a request:

If you have some free time today, read through this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dred_Scott_v._Sandford

It provides some historical background and insight, and you'll likely learn things you didn't know.

The Consequences and Reaction sections seem especially pertinent to this discussion.

And much of the article is extremely disturbing if you weren't already aware of the attitudes of most whites of that day (non radical republicans, at any rate):
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Scott did not dispute his ancestry, but contended other allegations in his suit made evident that he had been emancipated, and therefore could have the status of "citizen". The Court held that neither Scott nor any other person of African descent—whether or not emancipated from slavery—could be "citizen of a state", and therefore was unable to bring suit in federal court on the ground of diversity. Taney spent pages 407-421 of his decision chronicling the history of slave and negro law in the British colonies and American states. His goal was to ascertain whether, at the time the Constitution was ratified, federal law could have recognized Scott (a Negro descendant of a slave) as a citizen of any state within the meaning of Article III. Relying upon statements made by Charles Pinckney, who had claimed authorship of the Privileges and Immunities Clause during the debates over the Missouri Compromise,[26] Taney decided: "the affirmative of these propositions cannot be maintained." According to Taney [the chief justice], the authors of the Constitution had viewed all blacks as "beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect."

The Court also presented a parade of horribles argument, based on the Privileges and Immunities Clause of Article IV, listing what the Court considered to be the rights of citizens, and the inevitable and undesirable effects of granting Scott's petition:

It would give to persons of the negro race, ...the right to enter every other State whenever they pleased, ...to sojourn there as long as they pleased, to go where they pleased ...the full liberty of speech in public and in private upon all subjects upon which its own citizens might speak; to hold public meetings upon political affairs, and to keep and carry arms wherever they went.[27]

If Scott had been a citizen according to Missouri law, then the question of whether the Circuit Court could have jurisdiction would still be an open one, because "no State can, by any act or law of its own, passed since the adoption of the Constitution, introduce a new member into the political community created by the Constitution of the United States."

There were only two dissenters on the Supreme Court. One of them:
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Justice John McLean dissented writing that there was no basis for the claim that blacks could not be citizens. At the time of the ratification of the Constitution, black men could vote in five of the thirteen states. This made them citizens not only of their states but of the United States.[29] Therefore, Justice McLean concluded that the argument that Scott was not a citizen was "more a matter of taste than of law". In his dissent, Justice McLean cited as precedent Marie Louise v. Marot, an 1835 case in which Louisiana Supreme Court Chief Justice George Mathews Jr. ruled that "being free for one moment in France, it was not in the power of her former owner to reduce her again to slavery." [30]
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Wolock

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16366 on: April 12, 2016, 01:28:26 pm »

http://www.jjmccullough.com/CSA.htm

A side-by-side comparison of the constitutions of the US and the CSA with notes on the changes.

All in all, under the CSA's contitution States would have gained some rights (waterways dealing and taxing, impeaching federal-appointed state officials and issue bill of credit) lost some too (granting voting rights,freedom of commerce between States and abolishing slavery in their borders), but all of the controversial federal powers would have stay (Supremacy, Commerce, Necessary and Proper clauses and suspending habeas corpus).

About slavery the CSA's constitution pretty much make it unconstitutional to make anti-slavery law at any level of government.

So the Civil war being about States' right? Not really. Slavery? Hell yeah!

The only right they really want was the right to own slaves.


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misko27

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16367 on: April 12, 2016, 02:13:01 pm »

Yeah, it's kinda like slavery was the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand and state's rights was the web of alliances in contiental Europe. Together they formed the perfect conditions for a war to start, while individually they perhaps would not have been enough. The South had a history of going against the US government after all. During the Presidency of Andrew Jackson the Southern states were talking about how they could ignore federal laws in their juristiction of they wanted to or something like that. I believe it was called nullification and involved state laws trumping the federal level. Long story short, Georgia tried to pull this nullification trick and was stared down by Andrew Jackson (and the US military) until they gave in.

I've probably grossly simplified things here but whatever. My point is that the South had a history of opposing the US government when they couldn't get things their way that existed before the Civil War, so they didn't just get the idea to secede out of the blue. But at the same time they seceded over the reason of slavery, so you can't declare that the Civil War was only over state's rights either. I'm sure that some other reasons exist that I've missed too. Like a lot of wars, the underlying reasons are more complicated that the obvious ones.
I'd not quite make that comparison. It's more like the the web of alliances was slavery and the "Balkan Question", specifically the very existence of Serbia as a home for Serbs and the nature of the Hapsburg Monarchy was state's rights; the assassination was obviously most like the election of Lincoln, which set things off (or perhaps, gave an excuse to set things off).

You have to ask, why was State's Rights a major issue? Why was the south insisting on its rights? Perfectly content places do not demand autonomy, secession, or revolution (or what-have-you). I think that the primary mover of that question was the issue of Slavery, and the issue of State's rights just became the battleground on which it was fought; so for our WW1 metaphor, the web of alliances (specifically the need of Germany to have the support of Austria-Hungary and thus having an interest in maintaining the monarchy, the need of France to have Russia as an ally to retrieve Alsace-Lorraine, and the need of Russia to shore up their diplomatic influence after costly setbacks in the far east, Austrian Aggression in the region by annexing Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the collapse of the Russian-supported Balkan League into war and the failure of Russia to back Serbia in that conflict), while the Balkan issue (Austria-Hungary being an unstable mix of nationalities, and the threat they perceived from the very existence of Serbia and it's Yugoslavism to the Austrian State; coupled with the unwillingness of Russia to accept further Austrian humiliation) became the battleground for that after fits-and-starts elsewhere (such as the Morocco question, or the Balkan Wars).

The metaphors are getting away from me here. In any case, it's not necessarily wise to decide causation between state's rights ---> slavery - it could be the other way around, or correlation, or something else.
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Culise

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16368 on: April 12, 2016, 03:19:57 pm »

i believe the demand for cotton had been going down due to ramping up production in Egypt by the British at the time. this also being one of the reasons no one was vary eager to help the south as they didn't really need their cotton any more. stop trying to justify the civil war as anything besides a war over slavery that's what it was and no excuses and accusations of the north forcing the Souths had are going to fly.
It's the other way around; Egyptian cotton became popular due to the Union blockade.  When the Civil War ended, Egyptian and Indian cotton were once again superseded by Southern cotton as they were not as well suited for the mechanical looms of the time, tanking the Egyptian economy and helping (along with various profligate expenditures such as wars in the Sudan and the Suez Canal) pave the way for a series of defaults that resulted in effective British control of the country by the end of the century.  Indeed, the very biggest reason that the French and British were unwilling to help the South openly was actually, astonishingly enough, slavery.  The British especially could not stomach that, in spite of private sympathies for anything that took the Americans down a notch, because abolitionists had already won decisively in that country.  The French might have been able to tolerate it due to the fact that Napoleon III did have autocratic powers, but even he couldn't just cavalierly overrule the entire liberal wing of his nation, which similarly disdained slavery.  Economically and politically, it would have made perfect sense for both nations to step in and at a bare minimum crush the Union blockade; indeed, the French were already in the neighborhood propping up a puppet king in Mexico, which the Confederacy was much more amenable to tolerate than the Union was.  The reasons they couldn't do so were social. 

Also, it's worth noting that the South alone wasn't the only part of the Union to undertake nullification as a principle; it was endemic to all of the states.  New England came very close to acting in 1809 and 1814, but in both cases were preempted (the former by the repeal of the Embargo Act that sparked the debate, the latter by the end of the War of 1812).  As recently as 1859, just two years prior, Wisconsin attempted unsuccessfully to nullify the Fugitive Slave Act at the judicial level, resulting in a Supreme Court decision that set the precedent that state courts could not overrule the federal courts or federal laws (Ableman v. Booth), and states like Pennsylvania had done the same as well - South Carolina, in fact, explicitly stated that these attempts at state nullification of the federal government were part of the reason for its secession.
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The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.
In other words, states' rights only exist insofar as they preserve and enforce the institution of slavery; the rights of states undertaken to restrict the flow of slaves is not to be countenanced, and is to be taken as justification for secession.  Nullification in and of itself was not adequate for the Civil War; it was slavery that made the difference between another Nullification Crisis and the Civil War.

EDIT: It would truly help if I were able to actually finish my sentences.  Also, it seems the Catholics of France did support the Confederacy, so that was an error on my part that I've excised.  >_<
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 03:41:25 pm by Culise »
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itisnotlogical

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16369 on: April 12, 2016, 05:57:23 pm »

In more minor discussion, McRory is doing basically nothing to the bathroom bill while giving a pretty hefty wink-wink-nudge-nudge to supporters of the bill.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16370 on: April 12, 2016, 06:14:57 pm »

Yikes.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16371 on: April 12, 2016, 06:24:46 pm »

The attempts to pass bathroom laws seem insane to me because as far as I can tell there is not a single example of the behaviour they're trying to outlaw actually happening and being a problem. They don't even have an isolated incident to blow out of proportion.
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redwallzyl

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16372 on: April 12, 2016, 06:29:59 pm »

The attempts to pass bathroom laws seem insane to me because as far as I can tell there is not a single example of the behaviour they're trying to outlaw actually happening and being a problem. They don't even have an isolated incident to blow out of proportion.
yup and this is a new concept to you? they have done this forever! they don't have justifications for their irrational and pointless laws they just create straw men.
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Andmore

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16373 on: April 12, 2016, 06:31:52 pm »

The attempts to pass bathroom laws seem insane to me because as far as I can tell there is not a single example of the behaviour they're trying to outlaw actually happening and being a problem. They don't even have an isolated incident to blow out of proportion.
yup and this is a new concept to you? they have done this forever! they don't have justifications for their irrational and pointless laws they just create straw men.
IIRC, the justification was to "protect women and children"
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itisnotlogical

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16374 on: April 12, 2016, 06:34:07 pm »

You can say the same about any idiotic law that's been passed in America's history. Laws aren't based on facts, they're based on what people (read: eligible voters) are afraid of and concerned about. Right now, fundies are afraid of the homogays.

I feel sorry for the North Carolinian and Mississippi citizens that will be feeling the results of their governor's actions and businesses' subsequent decisions to retract jobs, expansion plans, etc. from those states. At the same time however, I am hoping that those governors and lawmakers go down in history as laughingstocks that ruined their states.

What angers me most about the whole thing is the hypocrisy in the outcry against companies withdrawing business.

"Chick-Fil-A's CEO is against the homogays? God bless America, land of unparalleled freedom!"

"Paypal is withdrawing hundreds of jobs because our governor passed a law that a bad idea from every angle, essentially state-wide suicide and nobody but ourselves to blame? Daddy they're blackmailing and sabotaging us, make it stop!"
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Dozebôm Lolumzalìs

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16375 on: April 12, 2016, 06:37:36 pm »

Yeah, I don't get Republicans.


« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 07:01:00 pm by Dozebôm Lolumzalìs »
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itisnotlogical

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16376 on: April 12, 2016, 06:45:36 pm »

I mean seriously, why did they think it was a good idea?

The North Carolina one was essentially in opposition to a bill in a county that said basically the opposite of HB2, allowing transgender people to use bathrooms that corresponded to their identity. "Hey, this whole 'transgender rights' thing is getting pretty popular! It's even got its own bill, here in the state that I'm in control of! It totally wouldn't be insane to go against this!"

I mean you'd expect politicians to be at least a little pragmatic in their approach.
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Powder Miner

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16377 on: April 12, 2016, 07:22:52 pm »

Yeah, I don't get Republicans.
>implying Republicans are even CLOSE to a single, unified mass
i mean, parties in two-party systems NORMALLY have absurdly wide bases of views
and then the republican party now is just defecating itself wildly, making it even worse

in all fairness, though, what your post is arguing against IS the traditional conservative viewpoint
(I'm a registered Republican but also a libertarian and unbelievably salty at times about the views of some of the rest of the party)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 07:25:27 pm by Powder Miner »
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16378 on: April 12, 2016, 07:25:55 pm »

The North Carolina one was essentially in opposition to a bill in a county that said basically the opposite of HB2, allowing transgender people to use bathrooms that corresponded to their identity.
I always found it weird that male-female bathrooms are legally enforced in the first place
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Leafsnail

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16379 on: April 12, 2016, 07:26:42 pm »

>implying Republicans are even CLOSE to a single, unified mass
i mean, parties in two-party systems NORMALLY have absurdly wide bases of views
and then the republican party now is just defecating itself wildly, making it even worse

in all fairness, though, what your post is arguing against IS the traditional conservative viewpoint
(I'm a registered Republican but also a libertarian and unbelievably salty at times about the views of some of the rest of the party)
Maybe choose to stop identifying with the increasingly terrible political party then.
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