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[Manzeenan]

IIRC Whether or not a dorf can wield and multigrasp/singlegrasp a weapon is determined by size height and broadness (correct me if I'm wrong, I am 88% sure)

My question: why is this dictated by size instead of strength? My experience lies in wrestling (irl no joke) but combat is not dictated solely by size so why is weaopn wielding? I know 2h swords are around 6 feet long but a freakishly jacked dwarf should be able to use one, in fact anyone should be able to enable to enable their dwarfs to use 2h weapons if they train their attributes which takes quite a while in fort mode IMO.

Second why is size not affected by strength (or is it?) size is not limited to height and broadness two people of the same height and broadness are not going to be the same size usually one is more muscular or fat.

Am I just totally wrong or astray here?

[Putnam]

Height and broadness are just parts of size. Size = height*broadness*length.

Yeah, strength should probably factor into it, though it's possible that no dwarf of any size could use a certain weapon because of balance issues ("falling over" balance, not game balance).

[pisskop]

Im of the mind that its for simplification purposes. creatures share body parts and by default all sizes are the same.  All tissues are also of identical relative thickness by default, and muscle tissue is identical between species as well.

  Size in DF currently corresponds to mass and strength, because most vanilla critters share the same tissues, tissue thickness, relative physiology, and relative limb sizes.  So an arbitrary strength system implimented would only complicate things further.

[Putnam]

No, fat/muscle tissue thicknesses are modified by fatness and strength, respectively.

[Manzeenan]

I can understand the balance thing but with increased strength comes more muscle, i personally have gained over 50 pounds of muscle over the last year because i was working towards dramatic strength increase. [increased strength= increased muscle mass= increased size] In my mind it would make sense to have strength be a big part to the extent of superdwarven strength enabling singlegrasp 2h and superior strength on a human enabling singlegrasp . Having superdwarven strength should allow the dwarf to wield anything it needs because it is freakishly strong but in this instance the human being bigger needs less strength to throw the weapon around.

On a side note, dwarves should have the option to make any weapon of any civ because they are the best smiths in all the lands why can they not forge weapons like whips or at least longswords.

[StagnantSoul]

Probably so your enemies have some form of advantage. Japan and Korea had amazing smiths, but made a select few things. I feel that's the way df works.

[Manzeenan]

Yeah that makes sense but elves are fast and humans are bigger, I feel that weapons should be able to be deconstructed in vanilla and become available to the fort or civilization or at least be a way to improve the quality of foreign weapons. I beleive that a Rework weapon reaction is in order, dwarves are master craftsmen and smiths.  I have made custom reactions for reworking weapons and armor but want a steel 2hander or longswords for my military. Perhaps I will create a reaction for deconstructing weapons to blueprints in the mean time.

[Ngosp Umbabok]

I think that in fortress mode the player should be able to direct there dwarves to make any kind of weapon even if it can not be immediately used. There are a number of ways this could have a purpose such as:

1. for trade

2. training your dwarves to use it as already mentioned

3. to equip mercenaries with it that you recruit from your tavern

4. to create equipment to be stored and used by a player adventurer after retiring the fort (masterwork adamantine longsword)

[pisskop]

No, fat/muscle tissue thicknesses are modified by fatness and strength, respectively.

Aye but those are individual states, not part of the template of a creature.  Any can_learn critter can improve those, and at the exact same rate (unless slow learner applies to those gains too).

[Gargomaxthalus]

I think that in fortress mode the player should be able to direct there dwarves to make any kind of weapon even if it can not be immediately used. There are a number of ways this could have a purpose such as:

1. for trade

2. training your dwarves to use it as already mentioned

3. to equip mercenaries with it that you recruit from your tavern

4. to create equipment to be stored and used by a player adventurer after retiring the fort (masterwork adamantine longsword)

For those very reasons, it may well already be a planned feature.

A Dwarf should NOT be able to use a zweihander, battle axe or any such weapon though. They look foolish in Dragon Age and it would be way to unwieldy no matter how strong they are. I would more rather see Dwarves get some weapons that only they can use and to somehow make the existing weapons a bit more special due to being made by Dwarves. You know, like "bearded" axes.

[Authority2]

Seems like an adamantine anything would be light enough to swing around no matter what. With the incredible sharpness, the wielder wouldn't even need any force behind the weapon.

[wobbly]

Even if your strong a long weapon is going to be awkward for someone with short arms & legs. A polearm in particular is going to be just plain ludicrous, your grip is shifting well down the pole & the weight of the head is well away from your center of gravity & once it's moving... It's less silly with a sword but even still, it's not lifting the thing that's the problem, it's keeping control of a fast moving weight that's away from your center of gravity. Being able to lift more doesn't help as much when the weight's actually in front of you pulling you forwards.

[BoredVirulence]

This post is primarily related to the ability to grasp large weapons with a single hand, but it also has implications for multi-grasping large weapons by small creatures...

All melee weapons are a lever, and most attacks utilize this, swings in particular. To move a lever you need 2 points of contact, a point where you apply pressure, and a fulcrum. There are actually multiple levers at work when swinging a sword, your hand makes two points of contact to hold the sword steady, and your point of rotation, such as your shoulder, makes a fulcrum for a larger leaver encompassed by the sword and your arms. For both levers there are 2 points of contact.

This is why some weapons are simply two handed in real life, you need to space those points of contact out to maintain control. When you are holding a sword, part of your hand is a fulcrum, and another applies a force to counteract the torque made by the fulcrum and gravity. Larger weapons have a greater torque, and because its a lever you can counter that force by spacing out the fulcrum and where your hand applies pressure.

This creates a real upper bound on how large a weapon you can wield and strength only helps so much. Its true that, if there is no limit to the force you can apply, then the distance between your fulcrum and that force can be as small as you like, but there are very real limits to that force you can apply, and it only varies slightly with increases in strength. Therefore some weapons must be wielded with 2 hands in real life (even if it can be held in certain positions with a single hand, control will be minimal and movement will be limited).

The same will scale down to dwarves, smaller hands mean smaller weapons for single-grasp. Smaller arms mean smaller weapons for multi-grasp. Though the issue is easy to scale for what weapons must be multi-grasped, its more difficult to see how it should scale for weapons that can't be grasped at all.

I agree strength should be a part of the role, but not the determining factor. In fact, I agree here size is certainly the determining factor, strength's role would be quite minimal and maybe even negligible in my opinion. I think the weight of the material has much more to do than the strength of the wielder, as such:

Seems like an adamantine anything would be light enough to swing around no matter what. With the incredible sharpness, the wielder wouldn't even need any force behind the weapon.

I agree.


TL;DR: Melee weapons are a set of levers, and the space between the fulcrum and your point of force makes a much greater difference than the amount of force a stronger person can apply. Size really is more important.

[Manzeenan]

This makes sense but shouldnt superdwarven strength allow things not normally possible? I agree with nearly all of your argument but there are freaks of nature that can do freaky things like use weapons taller than themselves. I'm looking for a small minority to be allowed single grasp 2h swords. Except candy, its like wielding a deadly feather anyone can do it.